Author Topic: Dreadnoughts!  (Read 4663 times)

Ruckdog

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Dreadnoughts!
« on: April 21, 2014, 08:01:20 pm »
So, in many ways the dreadnought-type battleship is still the symbol of the naval side of WWI, even though mines and submarines were arguably the bigger part of the action. I figure we can't have a discussion of WWI on a naval wargaming site without at least having one thread devoted to them!

So, I thought I would start by outlining some basic things about battleships during. The first thing to understand is just what constitutes a "dreadnought." While there is no precise definition, the basic characteristics of a dreadnought battleship that distinguished it from earlier designs were the following:

1. Large Size
2. Higher speed
3. All big-gun armament

In it's purest form, a dreadnought battleship would have only large main guns, with only a few small, rapid firing guns for point defence against torpedo boats. In practice, only the earliest British designs really held to that concept; just about everyone else insited on retaining a 5" or 6" secondary armament. The HMS Dreadnougt herself mounted 10x 12" guns in 5 twin turrets. Compare that to a typical pre-dreadnought battleship, that would have had 4 such guns in only two turrets forward and aft. Of course, the pre-dreadnought would also have had 4-8 8" guns, and a dozen or more 5" or 6" guns backing those up.

What do you guys think? What is your favorite dreadnought-era class? What do you think the most game-changing aspect of the HMS Dreadnought was? And perhaps more provocatively, do you think that Britain was wise to upset the apple cart by building her in the first place (not that she was the only one considering such a move, mind you)?

MajorMcNicol

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Re: Dreadnoughts!
« Reply #1 on: April 21, 2014, 08:23:15 pm »
So I was under the impression that one of the most revolutionary features of the HMS Dreadnought was that all its big guns were center-line turrets that could be brought to bear in either broadside, thereby yielding great long-range firepower from all guns (although the Dreadnought itself had the two beam turrets that couldn't fire over the centerline).  Was this not done before, or was the Dreadnought remarkable for bringing this concept to the fore? 
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Ruckdog

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Re: Dreadnoughts!
« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2014, 09:09:07 pm »
That was not so much HMS Dreadnought's revolutionary feature as it was USS SOUTH CAROLINA's; The Dreadnought could only put 8 of her 10 12" guns on a single broadside, whereas the SOUTH CAROLINA could match that broadside with only 8 guns in 4 turrets, because all of hers were mounted on the centerline. The HMS Dreadnought's major claim to fame was being "first to market" with the all-big-gun battleship concept. Other powers were already considering similar designs; the US had already authorized the SOUTH CAROLINA at the time the Dreadnought being laid down, for example. However, the Royal Navy (specifically First Sea Fisher) pushed her construction along at a break-neck pace and she was completed something like 2 years ahead of any comparable ship.

Landlubber

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Re: Dreadnoughts!
« Reply #3 on: April 22, 2014, 12:43:43 am »
Here here, a grand idea, Ruckdog!

I actually learned more in your posts in this thread about Dreadnoughts than I previously knew on the topic.  So, I don't really have a favorite, I guess.

My first question, I suppose, is how effective were these ships?  Were they hampered by only having "big" guns?  Did the presence of Dreadnoughts have a profound effect on naval warfare of that era (like the aircraft carrier did in WW2)?
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Ruckdog

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Re: Dreadnoughts!
« Reply #4 on: April 23, 2014, 09:00:43 pm »
Here here, a grand idea, Ruckdog!

I actually learned more in your posts in this thread about Dreadnoughts than I previously knew on the topic.  So, I don't really have a favorite, I guess.

My first question, I suppose, is how effective were these ships?  Were they hampered by only having "big" guns?  Did the presence of Dreadnoughts have a profound effect on naval warfare of that era (like the aircraft carrier did in WW2)?

I'll do my best to address each of these points...

"How effective were these ships?"
 
This question strikes at the heart of the debate going on within the navies of the time. The problem was, in the early 20th century the navies of the world did not have a lot of experience with naval combat involving modern warships. There had been dramatic leaps in all aspects of warship design, but there was a lot of debate on the impact of all of these advancements. One camp argued an effective battleship needed to have as many smaller guns as possible to lay down a torrent of fire and degrade an enemy ship by destroying unarmored portions of it, with a few heavy guns to put critical hits on the more protected areas. The other camp (which is where the Dreadnought concept sprung from) contended that if a few heavy guns were good, more would be better; hits would be more damaging, and it would be easier to direct the fire from one size of gun than two or three simultaneously. The Battle of Tsushima in 1904 was the main instance of battleship-on-battleship action at that time, and it provided ammuntion for both camps. A vast majority of the hits scored were made by smaller guns, but the few large-caliber hits that were scored had devestating effects on the ships that were struck.

The question was ultimately settled by First Sea Lord Fisher's "bull in a china shop" approach of using his position to rush an all big-gun battleship to service. Once he had, the geanie was out of the bottle; the Dreadnought's uniform armament, combined with advances in fire control, made her much more accurate and deadly than prevoious battleship designs. No other navy with aspirations of first-rank status could afford to be left behind.

Were they hampered by only having big guns?

Yes and no. Certainly, the lack of a decent secondary armament was one of the main criticisms of HMS Dreadnought and her immediate successors. Just about every navy except Britain went with robust secondaries from the beginning, and even Britain followed suit eventually. It turned out that large caliber main guns just weren't suited to fending off attacks from destroyers, torpedo boats, and the like. However, that is not to say that having a uniform main armament was a detriment; to the contrary, this worked in the ship's favor, for the reasons discussed above. It's just that the main armament wasn't the one size fits all solution Fisher imagined.

Did Dreadnoughts have a profound effect on naval warfare?

Again, yes and no. As I said, the advent of the all big-gun battleship definitely touched off an international naval arms race, as earlier classes of battleship simple could not compete. Likewise, dreadnoughts steadily grew in size, power, and speed, while at the same time engagement ranges steadily increased as better and better spotting and fire control techniques were developed. Despite all of that, dreadnoughts did not dramatically shift tactical or strategic thinking. Tactically, naval commanders were still forming up in lines of battle and endeavoring to cross each other's "T." Strategically, admirals still thought in Mahanian terms, where the primary objective was to engage and destroy the enemy's battle fleet. The dreadnought did have one unanticipated affect in this area, however. The growth in size and power of battleships also led to a growth  in cost; dreadnoughts were drastically more expensive to build than pre-dreadnoughts. This in turn tended to make commanders more cautious about employing their ships; you can see this in the way both the German and British admirals at Jutland placed the preservation of their fleets ahead of destroying the enemy.

Landlubber

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Re: Dreadnoughts!
« Reply #5 on: April 26, 2014, 10:41:54 am »
That's very interesting.  Makes me want to go read the Massie book, except I have a few other books in the pipeline before I can get to it.   :-\

So from what I understand, then, a dreadnought is basically a battleship on steroids...right?  This fits with the battleship/dreadnought class ships in Dystopian Wars.

Were the dreadnoughts only used in WW1?  Or was that class of battleship also used in WW2?
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Ruckdog

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Re: Dreadnoughts!
« Reply #6 on: May 09, 2014, 07:14:54 pm »
Well, here is the thing: "Dreadnought" was never an official military designation for a ship type. All big gun battleships were colloquially referred to as Dreadnoughts after the first of the type to be completed, the HMS Dreadnought. Officially, the HMS Dreadnought and her successors were classified as "Battleships."  This is especially evident in the US Navy, where the hull numbering went from USS Indiana, BB-1 (our first true pre-dreadnought) to USS Wisconson, BB-64 (the last of the Iowas to be completed). 

After the HMS Dreadnougt, pretty much every battleship built from then on was of the all big gun type. The only non-Dreadnoughts in existence by the start of WWII were relics left over from before WWI. And, there were a few. The Germans had one Predreadnought, the Schleswig-Holstien, that fired some of the first shots of the war. The Greeks also still had a couple of ex-US Predreadnoughts they had bought in the 20s. So, in that sense, just about every battleship I'm service during WWII was a dreadnought.

wargamer55

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Re: Dreadnoughts!
« Reply #7 on: May 18, 2014, 11:25:23 pm »
An interesting side affair to the dreadnought question where the battle cruisers. They followed the all-big gun armament plan of the dreadnought battleships but were speedier. The British bought that speed at the expense of protection, the Germans bought it at the expense of firepower. Experience seemed to vindicate the German approach.

Landlubber

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Re: Dreadnoughts!
« Reply #8 on: May 25, 2014, 04:29:49 pm »
With my non-naval background, I have a hard time identifying the roles of some ship types.  The battlecruiser has always been a mystery to me.  I guess they fell somewhere between a cruiser and a full battleship in terms of speed, armor, and weaponry?  But what roles would they have filled?
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Ruckdog

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Re: Dreadnoughts!
« Reply #9 on: May 27, 2014, 11:18:47 pm »
Well, as wargammer55 pointed out, the battlecruiser is definietely an off-shoot of the dreadnought family tree. In the sense that they mounted an all-big gun armament, they were clearly a "dreadnought type" as far as that went. Not only that, but they sprang out of the same Royal Navy building programs and schools of thoght that created the Dreadnought.

The genesis of the "battle cruiser" as we think of it (a capital ship with a battleship armor yet high speed) was born out of Britain's strategic needs; at the turn of the 20th century, Britain had a far-flung empire and relied heavily on the merchant ship trade between those colonies and her home islands. That made the threat of commerce rading during wartime a very serious one indeed, and given the primitive nature of submarines and the "laws of war" that prohibited the surprise sinking of merchant ships, British naval thinkers concieved of the threat primarily as one of surface raiders, especially enemy cruisers. Even a handful of such raiders could do serious damage to a beligerent's merchant trade, which was bad enough. Even worse, their  destruction and/or the protection of the threatened merchants tended to tie down an inordinate amount of resources, resources that could be "better spent" (in the eyes of most admirals) doing proper Navy things...like engaging the enemy's battleships in a decisive battle.

In order to catch these raiders, fast and powerfully armed ships would be needed, and hence the battlecruiser. At the most basic level, the British concept of a battlecruiser was a ship designed to be heavily armed and just well protected enough to chase down and destroy any cruiser-sized or smaller raiders, yet fast enough to run away from anything big enough (like another battlecruiser or a battleship) that could serioulsy threaten it. The fact that such a ship would also be a dangerous commerce raider in its own right was not lost on the navies of the world, either! In addition, it must be remembered that radar was still decades away, and both heavier and lighter than air aviation was in its infancy. Not only that, but radio communication was still very primitive, and not all that reliable. In that environment, the only way to find the enemy and bring him to action was to send out some of your own ships as scouts that would then have to spot the enemy fleet and report its discovery back to the main force, perhaps using signal flags! Considering that, one can see how a battlecruiser's speed would also make it a very effective scout.

In desiging the battlecruiser, the Royal Navy had to work within the constraints that the designer of any warship has to labor under, using the technology they had. All warships strike a balance between several cometing characteristics, primarily speed, armament, and protection. If the displacement (ie, the rough overall size of the ship) is held constant, then it becomes a zero-sum game; the designer can't increase the armament without reducing one of the other factors, like protection (armor) or speed. The only way to short-circuit this problem is to make the ship bigger (which adds difficulties of its own) or develop improved technologies that allow better performance in a given characteristic for the same (or even less!) size and weight. In the case of the battlecruiser, British naval archetects emphasized speed and firepower over protection, under the assumption that the resulting ship would be fast enough to run away from anything that could seriously threaten it. The resulting design was certainly fast for a capital ship of the time at 25 knots (a full 4 knots faster than the Dreadnought, which was herself several knots faster than any other battleship), and nearly as well armed with 8 12" guns to the Dreadnought's 10. However, her protection was far weaker; they were the classic "glass cannon," able to dish out horrible punishment but not able to really absorb it.

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Re: Dreadnoughts!
« Reply #10 on: December 28, 2019, 11:17:56 am »
With my non-naval background, I have a hard time identifying the roles of some ship types.  The battlecruiser has always been a mystery to me.  I guess they fell somewhere between a cruiser and a full battleship in terms of speed, armor, and weaponry?  But what roles would they have filled?

They proved their effectiveness at the Falklands in hunting down German cruisers.  However, that role might have been done by a modern armoured cruiser as subsequently shown by the fast battleship / heavy cruiser combination of WWII.

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