Obscure Games

[Ryjak]

Both are interesting techniques, but in some ways rolling dice is simply faster while achieving nearly the same end results... except you can't gain dice-rolling skills, but you can gain pencil-dropping skills.  I think the importance is this: do you want to get skillful at that?

[Ruckdog]

Both are interesting techniques, but in some ways rolling dice is simply faster while achieving nearly the same end results... except you can't gain dice-rolling skills, but you can gain pencil-dropping skills.  I think the importance is this: do you want to get skillful at that?

I think the actual question we want to ask here is "Do we want a shooting mechanic that allows more skillful/experienced players to have an advantage?" In the case of pencil-dropping, granted that skill doesn't directly relate to anything having to do with naval gunnery (or really anything else in day to day life). However, players that practice pencil dropping will probably become better at it, and this could serve as a useful analog to represent the skill of a well-trained and drilled gunnery crew. In numerous historical engagements, crew training and quality appears to have played just as much of a role in the outcome of the battle as the technical qualities of the ships involved.

One other example from miniature gaming that springs to mind is the old "guess range" mechanic that GW used in older versions of 40k, BFG, and (I believe) WHFB. This required a player to announce a range in inches or cm from the shooting vehicle/ship to the target. The announce range was then measured out, and a blast template placed there. A scatter die was rolled and the shot deviated if a hit was not rolled on the scatter die. If the template covered something, it was a hit. If not, it was a miss. This mechanic was used for indirect fire for things like artillery, mortars, and the Nova Cannon in BFG. However, the mechanic was stripped out of GW's systems in the 2000s, and replaced with a pure Scatter mechanic (place the template where you want it within the weapon's max range, roll a scatter die, and move the template XD6 inches/cm in the direction rolled). From what I've read and heard, the main reason GW gave for making this change was that it gave experienced gamers and/or those that were good at doing math in their head an advantage, since they would be able to get their shots on target faster and keep them there, and they were receiving feedback that this wasn't "fair."

[Dakkar]

To put it bluntly, any game relying on manual dexterity that isn't a kids game, is balls as a wargame.

Doubly so in a space game where sensors should be measuring ranges to the micrometer.

Case in point, though with a massive nostalgia pleasing aspect, is this article on the old SPACE FLEET:
http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2017/02/retro-gws-first-space-combat-game-space-fleet.html

[Ruckdog]

To put it bluntly, any game relying on manual dexterity that isn't a kids game, is balls as a wargame.

Doubly so in a space game where sensors should be measuring ranges to the micrometer.

Case in point, though with a massive nostalgia pleasing aspect, is this article on the old SPACE FLEET:
http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2017/02/retro-gws-first-space-combat-game-space-fleet.html

Thanks for the link! That was a very interesting read. The dice-drop mechanic does sound a bit odd to me. I think I agree with you that dexterity-based mechanics are not an ideal solution for many games, if for no other reason than they can be unnecessarily exclusionary for those with disabilities. A game group I was once a part of had a member who had Parkinson's, and it was about all he could manage to roll dice.

I think this also speaks to a fact that we, as gamers, tend to assign tabletop gaming to the "intellectual challenge" bin, as opposed to the "physical challenge" bin; that is, our table top games should be a battle of wits (or failing in that, luck ) as opposed to physical strength or coordination. Which is one of the things that makes them so appealing to an uncoordinated and out of shape person like me .

To take the pencil-dropping idea to a ludicrous extreme, imagine a game where shooting attacks were resolved by an arm wrestling match!

[Ryjak]

I prefer David Sirlin's example: cake baking.  Basically, what is the skill that matters in the game?  Is it the dexterity test (from dropping pencils or moving the controls to execute a special move) or is it the player's choices?

[tomgr]

I'll add in two obscure naval games.

First Ram Speed my Metagaming which I believe came out in the 80's. Not the greatest game in the world, but one of the first to cover naval battles in the ancient world.

Second, is the first space naval game that I played which is Full Thrust. This game came out I believe in the 90's with rule books and a line of miniauters by Ground Zero Games. I played it quite a bit back then. There is a local person who runs Full Thrust games at San Francisco Bay area conventions, so I still get in one or two games a year. The game is fairly simple and fun. There was even rules for the Babylon 5 setting. One version of the rules included semi-Newtonian movement, which I've always felt is needed for space games.