Author Topic: Blog Post: Speedding up the Spartan Engine, Pt 1  (Read 2526 times)

Ruckdog

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Blog Post: Speedding up the Spartan Engine, Pt 1
« on: March 01, 2018, 06:04:28 pm »
Do games using the Spartan Engine, like FSA and DW, take too long to play? That's what I'm examining on the blog this week:

http://www.manbattlestations.com/blog/2018/03/01/speeding-up-the-spartan-engine-pt-1/

Easy E

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Re: Blog Post: Speedding up the Spartan Engine, Pt 1
« Reply #1 on: March 06, 2018, 04:44:03 pm »
I can think of a few ways to speed the game play up, but it involves a bit more abstraction and changing the turn sequence.  Then is it still DW or FSA?     

I look forward to read your thoughts in EP2. 
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Toxic_Rat

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Re: Blog Post: Speedding up the Spartan Engine, Pt 1
« Reply #2 on: March 08, 2018, 10:34:07 am »
I can think of a few ways to speed the game play up, but it involves a bit more abstraction and changing the turn sequence.  Then is it still DW or FSA?     

I look forward to read your thoughts in EP2. 

What ideas would you propose?
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Ruckdog

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Easy E

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Re: Blog Post: Speedding up the Spartan Engine, Pt 1
« Reply #4 on: March 09, 2018, 09:49:46 am »
I can think of a few ways to speed the game play up, but it involves a bit more abstraction and changing the turn sequence.  Then is it still DW or FSA?     

I look forward to read your thoughts in EP2. 

What ideas would you propose?

Well, since you asked.....   8)

1. I would change the Turn sequence to the following basic format.....
--- Movement- All of one side, then all of the other side- Any order the player wishes.  (Alternatively it could be "at the same time" with whoever makes the move first gets the priority for collisions and ramming)
--- Attack Phase- Players alternate selecting a unit to "attack" and complete all of its attacks (shooting and boarding) before moving to the next unit. 
--- End Phase- Any clean up needed where all of one side completes theirs, and then all of the other completes theres
-------- Experienced players could complete Movement and End phase at the same time. 

2. Movement- I would remove all templates and instead replace it with a on the spot 45 degree rotation with smaller ships being able to perform up to 3 rotations a movement phase

3. I would give universal range bands to all weapons, then universal "To hit numbers" at those range bands.  I.e. close 2+, short 3+, Medium 4+, Long 5+, Extreme 6+  These would be in increments of 4 inches, so max range would be 20 inches.  This allows more maneuver.

4. I would change firepower dice to be firepower pools that each ship has that can be distributed however the player wants.  Squadrons would pool their firepower dice.  There would be no fire arcs.  This would also limit special rules on weapons (or they could use different color dice).  Once pools were seperated they could all be rolled at rounghly the same time and then apply results. 

5. For squadrons I would have the lead unit move, and the accompanying ships can be placed anywhere within coherency around the lead ship.  Shooting would all be measured from/to the lead ships. 

6. Damage would be simplified to if you get more hits than the armor pool of the target, they are damaged.  So, pool firepower/Boarding dice, roll to hit based on range and hits more than the armor rating cause damage.  Every hit is then used to reduce the firepower, Movement, Boarding, or Armor pool making the combat attritional.  The player can choose what to reduce and when a squadrons pool/ship's pool is 0, they are ineffective in that category.  It armor pool is reduced to 0 or below the unit is sunk.  Critical hits would be 6's on Exploding dice only and cause 2 hits or pool removal.   

7. Terrain would be simplified by either increasing armor pool for defenders, reducing LOS.  Striking land or terrain would simply immobilize the unit and remove them from play as they are too busy doing other stuff to continue.   

8. I would also strreamline most MARs to simple pool changes or movement bonuses. 

Those are just some really quick changes I would make.  I haven't played in a long time.... so your mileage will vary.... and I could be completely misremembering how things work!  The game would be much more streamlined, but might not be as fun to play!  :)     
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RuleBritannia

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Re: Blog Post: Speedding up the Spartan Engine, Pt 1
« Reply #5 on: March 09, 2018, 09:57:41 am »
I think this fits my thinking.  I like the way DWars gives lots of options, lots of things to think about, but acknowledge that fixed channels and MAR bloat is a problem.  At the same stripping it all away, rather than a minor reform and you risk losing all flavour.  Maximum roll numbers, or removing exploding dice entirely would be a step too far.  Alternating activations I like as it makes things feel more like duelling ships.

We are in an odd moment to be sure.  The fluff and aesthetic is being changed, something I have been loud in berating for how it doesn't get what DWars was to its fans, and how by not getting it, and the manner of response to fans complaints being high handed was dangerous.  Nothing is more dangerous in that regard than a full rules shift.  Making DWars and FSA more like WWX with D8s and luck tokens and whatever else would be a big divide, whilst a hugely simplified system that removed all MARs and complexities, as Ruckdog has suggested, would involve trying to win over already disillusioned fans to a system that has rejected a lot of what made fleets unique and interesting at the altar of a game that would be barely recognisable. 

Covertwalrus

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Re: Blog Post: Speedding up the Spartan Engine, Pt 1
« Reply #6 on: March 10, 2018, 03:46:26 pm »
 OK, having read the discussion so far, here's my thoughts -

 1. Movement is a little complex, and yes, simplification would be useful. However, the biggest part of that is making small ships and large ships behave differently,; One of the critiques of many space combat games is "dogfighting Battleships" events where the rules allow capitals to race around like fighters. It wouldn't suit the milieu to have this happen in DW, though perhaps it might in FSA.  the Fleet Action single template was one of the worse parts of that version, IMHO, but I suppose as a "light" version of the game it was useful.

 2. "Analysis Paralysis" seem to be a buzzword around here. I've often heard it used to explain why some players have difficulties with some rules. Well, maybe. . . It sometime strikes me as a justification for making "dumbed-down" rules as well. Sure, an overly complex set of choices slows down the games, but we have the danger of moving more and more towards the "GW Approved Movement Book" approach to games, and if that happens, we might as well be playing chess.  ;D

 3. MAR and Weapon System Limits. Taking these in reverse order, weapons limitations are possibly a good idea, however it has to be handled with caution; My own experience in game design ( I was a participant in the revamp of Full Thrust into the Fleet Book version :) ) showed that while many players would rather have more weapons on a craft for tactical flexibility rather than one or two heavy weapons, they will then get bogged down in "analysis paralysis" when actually playing so it's a balance issue. FT manages the problem with the Mass-based design system and that does work well, though I've seen some Munchkins do their level best to break it and create Uberships; Still, I support the idea of a weapons limit based on size in principle, perhaps by combining multiple weapons into batteries rather than as single weapons, such as all the guns in one arc being treated as a unit for firing purposes using one dice pool. MARs however are a different story; Definite limits as to the number and type of MARs for size classes is an excellent idea.

 4. Activation. All move then alternate firing sounds very like FT and that might explain why I'm liking the idea  :) As for the sequence of activation within each fleet, perhaps something like this might be workable -
 a) Large Ships fire first.
 b) Intact Squadrons fire.
 c) Medium ships fire.
 d) Small ships fire.
 e) Damaged/Broken Squadrons fire last.
 The reasoning here is fairly sensible; Large ships will have better morale and would be expected to have an advantage. Squadrons still in coherent order would be expected to be next in line to fire, then Medium sized vessels operating on their own would be slightly less likely to have high enough morale to do so. Small ships operating solo would be quicker off the mark than damaged and out of order units or groups of ships which are in disarray from damages and losses, so would fire ahead of them. It takes some choice away from the player as damage increases among the fleet, and makes escorts more interesting - If the larger ships have hit effectively, the smaller vessels have a chance of striking a telling blow of their own on a wounded opponent.

 I agree with RuleBritannia that radical changes probably are not going  to bring many players back into the fold, but minor tweaks that re-tune the game might be appreciated. :)
« Last Edit: March 10, 2018, 03:49:00 pm by Covertwalrus »

Fracas

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Re: Blog Post: Speedding up the Spartan Engine, Pt 1
« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2018, 01:08:39 am »
My issue with alternating activations is that, except for the first activation each turn, subsequent activations feels reactive, thus it seems hard to maintain a battle plan.
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Ruckdog

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Re: Blog Post: Speedding up the Spartan Engine, Pt 1
« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2018, 10:36:55 am »
My issue with alternating activations is that, except for the first activation each turn, subsequent activations feels reactive, thus it seems hard to maintain a battle plan.

I find this to be a very interesting statement! I agree with your basic point that the alternating activation system used in the Spartan Game Engine (SGE) does lend itself more to reactive play then, say, a UGOIGO like BFG. For me though, I find the challenge of trying to maintain some semblance of a coherent battle plan while also effectively reacting to my opponents actions to be one of the more engaging aspects of the SGE. To a small degree, it reminds me a bit of the interplay between executing plans and reacting to an opponent’s plan that can be found in Chess.

Fracas

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Re: Blog Post: Speedding up the Spartan Engine, Pt 1
« Reply #9 on: March 11, 2018, 10:48:29 am »
Yes
But in game term it makes more sense to shoot at a squadron that has not activated than one that has already
Firestorm: Aquan, Directorate, Retholza, Hawker (FsA)/ Terran (FsPf), RSN (FsA)/ Dindrenzi (FsPf)
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Ruckdog

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Re: Blog Post: Speedding up the Spartan Engine, Pt 1
« Reply #10 on: March 11, 2018, 02:56:13 pm »
Yes
But in game term it makes more sense to shoot at a squadron that has not activated than one that has already

That’s definitely a good rule of thumb. There are plenty of situations where doing the opposite might be the better course of action, though. This could be a thread all it’s own!

Covertwalrus

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Re: Blog Post: Speedding up the Spartan Engine, Pt 1
« Reply #11 on: March 11, 2018, 02:59:16 pm »
Yes
But in game term it makes more sense to shoot at a squadron that has not activated than one that has already

 Yes, that makes sense of course. The again, I was speaking of the shooting squadron, not the target :) However, it all depends, as Ruckdog says on the tactical situation :)

 ( As an aside, this poll from The Moaners Pit :) might be instructive or at least interesting, though the comments rarely are - http://theminiaturespage.com/polls/748399401/ )

RuleBritannia

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Re: Blog Post: Speedding up the Spartan Engine, Pt 1
« Reply #12 on: March 11, 2018, 06:36:55 pm »
There also remains the problem of an already long break between releases which runs the risk of further degrading the fanbase, which rewriting the rules from scratch would only lengthen.  Not to mention having to rewrite the rules for land to justify the split and size change.