Spartan Day #2 at Gamer's Haven

[Dakkar]

All,

I'm looking to plan a Tacticon follow-up demo day for Spartan stuff in September.

Are any weekends better than others? 10th works for me until dinnertime, 17th is open so far.

Greg - I'd love for you to run HALO Fleet and Ground demos if you're game.

I'll gladly coordinate Firestorm and Planetfall demos/ megagames.

And I'll shoot to have the Iceland set ready for Dystopian Wars demos.

I want to use this as a local recruitment drive really... if sales don't pick up somehow, I don't see Rob supporting Spartan in 2017...

Thanks!
Dale

[Landlubber]

I would be happy to run demos of both Halo games, and can assist with Dystopian Wars. Right now, all my weekends are open in September.

I hate to sound like a downer, but...good luck generating interest. I'm just about done leading demo efforts for any of Spartan's products. Don't get me wrong, I love the games and will continue to purchase the miniatures and play them with whomever is interested, but I don't think anyone in the area is interested beyond the group of players we've already established, and I'm tired of beating the drum. As far as I know, we had two "new" people play at the Spartan Games demo day we ran at the Haven in April. Both played in the  Halo demo. One was 9 and was there with  his mom. The other guy was military, newly-assigned to the area, and was just looking for something to play while he was waiting for his 40k stuff to show up in his household goods. Haven't seen either of them since. And on "Spartan Games nights" at the Haven, usually the only people there to play Spartan products are me and whomever my opponent is (that's not a dig at those of you who can't/don't play on Monday nights at the Haven--it just is what it is). Maybe it's just not a good night, maybe Spartan's games are being played on other nights at the Haven, but I seriously doubt that. The staff even made a sign with my store forum name on it and put it in the Spartan section of the store, advertising Monday nights as Spartan Games Night, and I have yet to receive any requests for demos. The sign has been up for at least three months.

I'm not sure why we can't seem to generate more interest in these games. I've heard too many times the argument of "there are just too many game systems out there." While there certainly are a dizzying array of miniatures games currently on the market, Dystopian Wars and Firestorm Armada have both been around longer than many of the other current games that are tearing through the Haven and the wider miniature gaming world--Malifaux (I think), X-Wing, Star Trek: Attack Wing, Guildball, etc. You would think the older game systems would have a more "established" group of players--and some do (anything GW, Flames of War, etc), but the Spartan products don't, for whatever reason. Hell, as I was leaving the store this past Monday, the staff had already written in the table reservations for Tuesday--Malifaux all the way. And I'd bet (given the few times I've been in there on a Tuesday) every table was full. There just is no interest at that store for fleet-scale space or oceanic naval games, besides the few people who already play (most of whom are on this forum). The only interest I've seen at that store in large model-count games is 40k, WH Fantasy (or whatever it's called these days), and Warmachine. And every time I see on the store forum that someone has just moved into the area and is looking for a gaming group to join, they are either RPG players or 40k players.

Additionally, Spartan has the only current mass-produced, non-historical naval fleet game that I'm aware of (Dystopian Wars) and two of the probably only three mass-produced space fleet games (Firestorm and Halo: Fleet Battles--I'm counting the third as Star Wars: Armada). So it's not like Spartan is competing with the 28mm sci-fi/fantasy crowd or the 15mm historical crowd for players--their games are, for the most part, unique.

Maybe we'll see a bump in interest with the new Halo ground game, given Halo's wide appeal and recognizability, but I won't be surprised if we don't. I talked to one of the store staff yesterday, and so far I'm the only person who has pre-ordered the starter box for that game.

So yeah, I'll be there, because I enjoy playing the games and I enjoy seeing them on the tabletop. But I'll bet you lunch at Taco Bell that we don't generate any new players. Don't get me wrong--I sincerely hope it does. And I sincerely hope we get more players in general. But I just don't know if that's going to happen. And if Rob drops Spartan in 2017, well, I can't say I blame him. I tend to order all my Spartan stuff through him, so hopefully even if he does stop carrying it I can still order it through the store. I'd prefer to order through them even for a game they don't carry than go straight to the manufacturer, but that's just my own personal philosophy.

Sorry. Didn't mean the above as a rant. Just calling it like I see it. Happy to discuss the finer points with anyone interested.

[Dakkar]

I can't say you're wrong overall, and I too am tired of preaching in the wilderness. Aside from the Vanguard bump I get for what promos I can schedule, Spartan doesn't advertise worth a damn, except for their "Project of The Moment". And their recent sales policies have all but alienated US retailers and distributors over the past year. I should be going nuts for new PLANETFALL, or the dream Firestorm fleets I've waited years for (Syndicate and Omnidyne), but I can barely muster a meh.
If they alienate stores, stores won't push it, and that makes a huge dfifference.

All that said, a good while back, I labored for a year or two to generate more Warmachine players after deployments and school changes dropped the group from 12 to 6 or less. Eventually, something shifted, and the group exploded. (And now has promptly left again...) Meaning its cyclical, and it only really dies if we let it.

There just is no interest at that store for fleet-scale space or oceanic naval games, besides the few people who already play (most of whom are on this forum). The only interest I've seen at that store in large model-count games is 40k, WH Fantasy (or whatever it's called these days), and Warmachine.

I would argue that. The fashion right now is 28mm man-scale skirmish games. And not even "large army" - Malifaux and Guildball and Infinity are dominant; plus smaller army games like 40K Kill team, Age of Sigmar, and SAGA has big sway.
Spaceships don't fit in that model, and if they do, X-WING sucks all the air for that.
Without Spartan making a better sales case for its games (which TASKFORCE obviously did not do), that won't soon change.
I do think there's a fleet-scale hunger, but it needs to be sold to with a better hook - the return of BATTLEFLEET GOTHIC being the most likely hook.
All it might take for Spartan is a really nice FIRESTORM or DYSTOPIAN new edition/new box set. If they had half they attention to graphic design that GW has, and rules-ease that Privateer has, they'd sell like hotcakes. But what Box art there is doesn't sell it (or deters sales in the case of blank Planetfall boxes!). The IP is murky and impenetrable for most. And I think many would rather read the badly translated INFINITY Rules than assay your average Spartan Rulebook (let's face it, they've barely improved in clarity and structure).

So my bottom line is, despite flaws and all, I'll keep trying a while longer, hoping for that release that re-energizes things. But my early year plan for fleets in all major factions plus more has fallen WAY down in scope. I'll keep the Faith as much as my own permits, but mainly because I don't see XWING and SW ARMADA appealing to me as much. And as much as I dig the HALO system, I think the easy analogy with what LOTR did to Warhammer has come to pass. HALO has drained energy, resources and attention away from the core games, but without becoming as viable a system on its own. GW couldn't solve how to bring WFB back from the LOTR split until both systems died, and AoS was reborn from the ashes. We'll see how Spartan weathers...

[Landlubber]

I guess I don't tend to think of the games in those terms (marketing, appeal, manufacturer's relationship to stores, etc). I look at them like "This is a fun game, why aren't you people playing it?!?!?!?" As I look back, what drew me into Dystopian Wars (which then turned into Firestorm, Halo FB, etc) was the image of the Prussian Imperium-class sky fortress on the first edition rulebook. But you're right--the current DW rulebooks don't have any artwork and there is nothing for the Planetfall boxes. I think the DW, Firestorm Armada, and Halo boxes are a little better, as they show actual models or drawings of the models, but nothing like the chainsword-swing Ultramarine on the cover of the 40k book (or whatever image they have).

Like I said, I personally enjoy the games and I like the miniatures, so I won't stop buying or playing Spartan's games unless I absolutely have no opponents left (which hopefully won't ever happen). I hope that your LOTR analogy is wrong, and that Halo doesn't damage the company or cause irreparable damage to any of their other game lines (you could argue that's already happened with Dystopian Legions, but that game was suffering from lack of support even before the release of Halo: Fleet Battles).

Eh. These are First World Problems. Dale, I didn't mean to hijack your thread, my apologies. I would be happy to run demos for whatever you need for the demo day. I can certainly support Dystopian Wars, Halo: Fleet Battles, and Halo: Ground Command. Hopefully I'll have the majority of my Halo ground units painted by then. If nothing else, those of us who DO play can gather around and have our own Games Day.   

So if you're going to run that in September, I won't bother trying to set up a "games day" for our group that month.

[Quickdraw]

I won't be home at all in September. You'll have to count me out.
If you need any of my models though, let me know. Hopefully I can get my Halo Ground stuff painted real quick and you guys could use that too.

[zorper]

I'll participate in a demo game in September, but I too do not think demo games will draw people in.  I think we would do better with trying a dedicated bi-weekly game on the weekends where we show up with our models painted.  Maybe if people see players they will join.

I live in Littleton, so week days are pretty much out. Friday night - Sunday evenings would work for me.

[Landlubber]

I don't know how easy it would be to set something like that up at the Haven. They tend to be pretty busy on the weekends. Sundays might be an option, but that's something we'd need to talk to the store staff about. I agree, seeing the games played (with painted ships) on a regular basis is a good way to possibly grow the player base.

Dale, you know the Haven better than I do...how feasible would it be, do you think, for us to try to get in there every other Sunday to play? I know they have historicals on Sundays, but I'm not sure what else goes on there. I think I could support making the drive twice a month on a Sunday afternoon. Could even carpool with some of the folks up here if that would help.

[Quickdraw]

I like where you're going with this. I think one thing that we need to work on is just having a day. If we just want to play with each other we're good at scheduling our monthly meeting, but if we are looking to expand the player base we really need to just have a day. If you can make it, cool - if not, also cool. This is obviously easiest on a weekend, especially for you Denver guys. Read my thoughts on that below.

I don't know how easy it would be to set something like that up at the Haven. They tend to be pretty busy on the weekends. Sundays might be an option, but that's something we'd need to talk to the store staff about. I agree, seeing the games played (with painted ships) on a regular basis is a good way to possibly grow the player base.

Dale, you know the Haven better than I do...how feasible would it be, do you think, for us to try to get in there every other Sunday to play? I know they have historicals on Sundays, but I'm not sure what else goes on there. I think I could support making the drive twice a month on a Sunday afternoon. Could even carpool with some of the folks up here if that would help.

Sunday's seem to ebb and flow from what I've seen. You always have some Flames of War on the back two or four tables, and usually some Bolt Action on the middle two tables. Those first two tables are often open. But I have seen those get taken as well by stuff like SAGA.
I hate to say it but I don't know how much they'll be able to support us on the weekend. Don't get me wrong, it's not that they won't want to, but they have the whole "priority goes to the scheduled games." I think if you made the case to Rob that we feel Spartan Games doesn't get enough traffic on Monday nights and we want to try to expand the player base he would be much more likely to accommodate.

I've heard the same story now with three different systems that are popular at the store:
"No one was playing, but I showed up week after week regularly with painted models, even by myself for a number of weeks and just sat there, and people slowly started to gain interest."
This is the case with Malifaux (Ed), Infinity (Jesse), and Warmachine (Dale).

Gamer's Haven has a good problem to have where they have too many players and not enough space. But that relegates the meager Spartan weekly showing to Monday, the least busy day.

Obviously my work schedule has completely muffed my gaming schedule. However, this will be done soon and I'll happily support a bi-weekly Sunday session. Nothing strictly scheduled, just show up with models and we'll play a game.

[Landlubber]

If we were to try to set something like this up...I think it would need to be at the Haven. Collectormania is great, don't get me wrong, but they don't carry any Spartan products, and I think they likely would have a hard time even ordering Spartan products--one of the guys there told me a last year that their distributors stopped carrying Spartan stuff (hence the selloff of all their Spartan boxsets, blisters, etc). One of the other components of growing a player base is relative ease of access to game system. The Haven has a quite a few Spartan boxes on the shelves, for all four of their major systems--DW, Firestorm Armada, Planetfall, and Halo: Fleet Battles.

Quickdraw, I think you brought up a good point about talking to Rob--I think that's the right way to go about it. The truth of it is, the store doesn't really see much traffic at all on Monday nights--just about the only people there are the RPG group in the corner, the My Little Pony players, and the few Spartan players. There aren't a whole lot of people just "wandering through" to see what's going on. It's almost like the crowds start to build on Tuesday nights, and get larger and larger until Friday/Saturday, then subside until the following Tuesday. "Spartan Games Night" has been on Monday night for several months now, and I've been there the majority of those Monday nights, and there has been no uptick in players.

You're also right about the Haven having a "good" problem, in that there are so many players of so many game systems that they have to schedule them out. That means if Rob was amenable to giving us a couple tables on Sunday afternoon (or whatever day we are able to grab), we would need to have a good showing. I think it's OK right now because they aren't hurting for table space on Monday nights...you could run an X-Wing tournament in there on Monday nights and still have room for the Spartan players. Also, there would likely be more traffic in the store on a Sunday, since it's on the weekend, and hence more exposure.

Maybe we should talk to Rob about it, and if he agrees to give us some table space on Sundays, we could do Demo Day #2 on a Sunday in September as a "kickoff".

Thoughts?

[Quickdraw]

If we were to try to set something like this up...I think it would need to be at the Haven. Collectormania is great, don't get me wrong, but they don't carry any Spartan products, and I think they likely would have a hard time even ordering Spartan products--one of the guys there told me a last year that their distributors stopped carrying Spartan stuff (hence the selloff of all their Spartan boxsets, blisters, etc). One of the other components of growing a player base is relative ease of access to game system. The Haven has a quite a few Spartan boxes on the shelves, for all four of their major systems--DW, Firestorm Armada, Planetfall, and Halo: Fleet Battles.

Quickdraw, I think you brought up a good point about talking to Rob--I think that's the right way to go about it. The truth of it is, the store doesn't really see much traffic at all on Monday nights--just about the only people there are the RPG group in the corner, the My Little Pony players, and the few Spartan players. There aren't a whole lot of people just "wandering through" to see what's going on. It's almost like the crowds start to build on Tuesday nights, and get larger and larger until Friday/Saturday, then subside until the following Tuesday. "Spartan Games Night" has been on Monday night for several months now, and I've been there the majority of those Monday nights, and there has been no uptick in players.

You're also right about the Haven having a "good" problem, in that there are so many players of so many game systems that they have to schedule them out. That means if Rob was amenable to giving us a couple tables on Sunday afternoon (or whatever day we are able to grab), we would need to have a good showing. I think it's OK right now because they aren't hurting for table space on Monday nights...you could run an X-Wing tournament in there on Monday nights and still have room for the Spartan players. Also, there would likely be more traffic in the store on a Sunday, since it's on the weekend, and hence more exposure.

Maybe we should talk to Rob about it, and if he agrees to give us some table space on Sundays, we could do Demo Day #2 on a Sunday in September as a "kickoff".

Thoughts?

I like it.

The big point you mention is that there aren't even people coming in on Monday. It's not only a poor showing for players in general, it's a slow night for the store.

One thing to mention is that Sunday is an early day for them. The hours are 10 - 5 on Sunday. Which is enough time for our group to game, but it's something to think about for scheduling. Not everyone can be gone the majority of the day on Sunday, it's often a family day. But it's still plausible to come down at 1 or 2 and have a small game with someone. Again, the idea is to just have a better day where we agree to show for unscheduled and scheduled games.

[Dakkar]

Dale, you know the Haven better than I do...how feasible would it be, do you think, for us to try to get in there every other Sunday to play? I know they have historicals on Sundays, but I'm not sure what else goes on there. I think I could support making the drive twice a month on a Sunday afternoon. Could even carpool with some of the folks up here if that would help.

Historicals on Sunday rarely take more than a few tables. And I imagine they'd welcome the activity in general.

I could not do every other Sunday, but maybe every other of every other one. ;-)

[Landlubber]

Well, since I'm one of the more regular Spartan players at the store, I guess I could approach the staff about it and see what they think.

Dale, understood about the schedule. I think just having a continuous presence there on Sundays would be good, even if it's just a few of us. Right now, for me, getting down there every other Sunday would be doable. I've applied for a position in Denver, and if that goes through then I might be able to come more often than every other Sunday (because I won't be driving down to the Springs every weekday).

Also...are they even keeping up with scheduling certain nights for certain game systems? I know Ed was putting a note on the store forum every week about that, but I haven't seen one of those posts in a couple months.

[Dakkar]

Also...are they even keeping up with scheduling certain nights for certain game systems? I know Ed was putting a note on the store forum every week about that, but I haven't seen one of those posts in a couple months.

This is pretty well established for some systems, more fluid for others. Spartan is still in the Monday gulag (possibly the worst night for me after Fridays). But on Sundays even when there are SAGA and other events, I'd hazard there's always a table or two available.

[Landlubber]

So Dale, do you have a date for the games day yet?

[Dakkar]

So Dale, do you have a date for the games day yet?

No response from Rob or Ed to my email (seriously ... why do people never respond to emails anymore?).
And I haven't been into town yet to ask in person. If afternoon goes okay, I'll be in tonight... otherwise Thurs is my next chance.