RSN Tactics

[Ryjak]

Since Landlubber refuses to contact me about this, I figured I'd just start a thread here.

First, while the RSN have a lot of options for a Support Fleet, there isn't an over-arching play theme.  RSN instead have several unique ship classes with specialized roles, which can make them difficult to use cohesively.  There are a few commonalities though...

Elite Crew:  All RSN ships have Elite Crew, which means Command Checks get a success on a 3+.  Essentially, this means two things. 1) Flanking is slightly more precise. 2) Gas Clouds usually don't cause Disorder.  In fact, the failure chance drops from roughly 1/3 to 1/6.  This means you should plan to occupy every Gas Cloud on the table, using them as defensive bunkers.

Bonus to DR:  RSN T1 ships have a +1 bonus to DR, which can combine with 1-2 Shields to make them surprisingly resistant to damage.

+3 FTB:  This will often allow you to dictate Turn Order, which is important as RSN will often have an Activation Disadvantage.  Sometimes you will want to go second, as it might encourage your opponent to shoot at your DR 8 Dreadnought with 2 Shields hiding in a Gas Cloud, or otherwise waste their first Activation, or put themselves in a bad position.

Finally, the Zenian League TAC cards are garbage; just stick with the main 6 TACs.

[Landlubber]

Well, Ryjak, as I said before, you did contact me about RSN tactics when I was putting the game aside for the summer...

I agree with your assessment of the RSN having ships with specialized roles. Some of them work well together, and some just leave me scratching my head. Like...why do we have Spook Torpedoes on cruisers and even the carrier, but not on the battleship? Especially when the battleship can take a heavy cruiser as accompaniment?

I'll admit I don't use the gas cloud tactic--you're not the first person I've heard that from, so I think I need to give it a try.

One of my biggest frustrations with the RSN is, like you alluded to, getting out-activated in nearly every game I play. This seems especially magnified when I play against a Terran fleet. I never fail to be surprised by how many Terran ships you can pack into an 800-point game.

I can also never decide where to keep my cruisers. The cloak helps them stay alive at long range, and 10 Spook Torpedoes is nice (unless you're playing Terrans, which have shields on EVERYTHING), but I always want to get them in close to use their beams--which are pretty nasty in RB1 and 2. The problem is, the things are glass cannons, and can't survive long when they're close enough to use their beams.

To be honest, I feel that almost every game I play with the RSN is just a fight to stay alive. I've had very few games with them where I felt like I had at least a 50/50 chance of winning the game after turn one. The few games I have won have, oddly enough, been near blow-outs of my opponent. But that happens probably once for every 6-7 games I play.

[Ryjak]

I can only assume play-testing revealed the BB + CH combo was too strong when it had 9AD Spook Torpedoes, but I don't see how when everything else had 10 AD...

At least I now understand main problem: Spook Cruisers.  Like any unit with Cloak, this is a very difficult unit to use effectively.  It's important to understand two things:

1) 10 AD Spook Torpedoes will inflict reliable damage every turn, but unless you land Crits Turns 1-2 on Capital ships, they aren't very special.
2) The true power for Spook Cruisers are their Beams.  Maxing at 16AD, with a 2nd 10AD shot, they can really do some damage the turn they decloak.  Against some targets, 3x 10AD shots may be far superior.  Cloaked, they can still fire one 8AD shot, which can generally plink something.

You have to understand the squadron will crumple as soon as it decloaks, so the uncloaked activation will likely be their last offensive activation.  There are some exceptions, but this will give you the correct mindset for this unit.  Basically, they're like WWII Submarines.  Use Cloak to sneak up on a target, fire your main weapons, fade away.  And like Submarines, they shouldn't form an integral part of your fleet.

What was your last fleet list?

[Quickdraw]

From playing against the RSN numerous times I have some thoughts.

They seem to be a fleet that does two things decently well but not one thing exceptionally.
They have decent long range kinetics and torpedoes, and they have decent close range beams, but neither are devastating like with other fleets. That being said they fill an interesting niche. I think the trick is figuring out the momentum of the fleet. When is the opportune time to close range and go full hog on the beams?
RSN ships are expensive, they pay for the plethora of weapon systems available to them. So if you aren't utilizing all of those systems within a game you are essentially playing with less points then your opponent.

[Landlubber]

@Quickdraw, good points all.

I can only assume play-testing revealed the BB + CH combo was too strong when it had 9AD Spook Torpedoes, but I don't see how when everything else had 10 AD...

At least I now understand main problem: Spook Cruisers.  Like any unit with Cloak, this is a very difficult unit to use effectively.  It's important to understand two things:

1) 10 AD Spook Torpedoes will inflict reliable damage every turn, but unless you land Crits Turns 1-2 on Capital ships, they aren't very special.
2) The true power for Spook Cruisers are their Beams.  Maxing at 16AD, with a 2nd 10AD shot, they can really do some damage the turn they decloak.  Against some targets, 3x 10AD shots may be far superior.  Cloaked, they can still fire one 8AD shot, which can generally plink something.

You have to understand the squadron will crumple as soon as it decloaks, so the uncloaked activation will likely be their last offensive activation.  There are some exceptions, but this will give you the correct mindset for this unit.  Basically, they're like WWII Submarines.  Use Cloak to sneak up on a target, fire your main weapons, fade away.  And like Submarines, they shouldn't form an integral part of your fleet.

What was your last fleet list?

Spook Cruisers (actually mine are Shrikes, the "first gen" RSN cruisers) aren't the only problem. The battleship has to be kept at long range in order to stay alive, unless everything within range of it has been sufficiently damaged so as not to present a threat. The battleship is a DR7/CR11...not sure how that stacks against other battleships, but it only has one shield. I just find it to be too fragile, so I tend to keep it at long range of almost everything--which means it's only real effective weapon is the fixed-fore Kinetic, which as a decent amount of dice at RB3 and 4 (even better when I run it with a Cerberus heavy cruiser). The torps are too weak at that range to do much damage except maybe against a frigate/escort, but then it suffers from the -1 to hit due to the size difference.

One tactic I admittedly haven't tried at the Patrol Fleet level is running a squadron of heavy cruisers in lieu of the battleship.

Going back to the Shrikes, though--I don't feel like they're a survivable squadron when they've closed with the enemy. So I rarely put them in a position to use their beams. They end up staying well back and lobbing torpedoes, a tactic which has brought me mixed results--especially since most of my opponents play with shielded fleets, and getting 10 torps through PD and shields and causing reasonable damage is difficult. While the concept of spook torpedoes usually freaks my opponents out, in my experience their bark is worse than their bite.

My last fleet list was two full squadrons of Bulwark frigates, one squadron of Shrike cruisers, and one battleship with Cerberus heavy cruiser in accompaniment. I was playing against Terrans--his fleet list, if I remember correctly, was one battleship, one carrier with escorts, one full cruiser squadron, and one full frigate squadron. I actually manhandled him pretty well, mostly because I got a few good dice rolls early that degraded his combat effectiveness--probably the best outing I've had against the Terrans. But it could have gone either way, and the difference (I felt) was luck--I had some good early dice rolls, and he had some bad early dice rolls from which he was not able to recover. As I usually do, I kept one squadron of frigates in reserve and shunted them in to the rear of his fleet in turn 2. They were able to tear things up pretty effectively. I would like to try the same tactic with the Shrikes, and just not worry about using their cloak ability, but I would need to do that in a Battle Fleet-level game as I doubt the squadron would be alive very long.

[Quickdraw]

One tactic I admittedly haven't tried at the Patrol Fleet level is running a squadron of heavy cruisers in lieu of the battleship.

If memory serves Greg, you used a patrol fleet list built around heavy cruisers in a couple games prior to, and then in a small tournament Dale set up at the Haven.
I remember getting trounced by your heavy cruisers in practice and then getting some exceptionally good dice rolls in the tournament making them ineffective. Not sure how they worked in your other games that day, but I felt they were much more effective then the battleship.
I would be curious how the carrier would preform/change your tactics and list composition. If you aren't happy with the battleship perhaps you should just go with the carrier and bulk up on cruisers and heavy cruisers. The RSN carrier is definitely no slouch.

[Dakkar]

Going back to the Shrikes, though--I don't feel like they're a survivable squadron when they've closed with the enemy. So I rarely put them in a position to use their beams. They end up staying well back and lobbing torpedoes, a tactic which has brought me mixed results

This is why they never quite deliver for you. You MUST risk them *at the right moment* to get the worth out of beams. The one time I borrowed them (last Spartan Day iirc) they got stuck in and died after a cloaked salvo or two, but the beams and torps did LOTS of work still in turns 2 to 4.

[Ryjak]

I think we've identified the main issue, Landlubber:  You aren't willing to get 'stuck-in' with your capital ships, which prevents them from bringing their firepower to bear (Shrikes and Battleship).  I'm guessing you have tried to get 'stuck-in', but it didn't work out, so now you're not willing to commit properly.  Perhaps it was luck, perhaps it was tactics (yes, there are squad tactics in FSA), maybe both.

I'm also guessing the Shrike playstyle doesn't work for you, but maybe the Heavy Cruisers playstyle will.  These guys like to stay away and really pound their opponents before getting up close for the kill.  Basically, they should be putting out more firepower than their opponent at all ranges, particularly at long range, which might appeal to you more.  If they can get a RB4 shot on Turn 1, and slowly close the distance while firing every turn, they'll be happy.

As for the Battleship, DR 6/CR10 with 2 Shields is Standard, so DR7/CR11 with 1 Shield is generally superior.  Essentially, one of the Battleship's shield dice ALWAYS rolls a success.  I'll take these defenses any day.  The Battleship has basically the exact same tactics as the Heavy Cruisers too.  Pounds from a distance, then kill up close.  The difference is the Battleship has much better defenses, Wing Capacity, Mines, extra Fore Beams at 0"-20", and a couple of options, for slightly less firepower.  However, lets look at the real cost:

3x Heavy Cruisers: 270 points base, max AD at 24" = 18
Battleship + Heavy Cruiser: 280 points base, max AD at 24" = 16

16 AD is when you start having a reasonable chance to Crit a Battleship, but 18 is reliable.  That said, the Heavy Cruisers are generally better off firing three shots of 9AD at Cruisers, and potentially landing three Critical Hits.  I'll take 6 HP on Cruisers over 2 HP on a Tier 1 any day.

The real Battleship cost comes from the upgrades and hard points.  You should always take 4 Wings and Special Forces for +30 points (don't forget the Heavy Cruiser).  Add Hardpoints as your points allow; my favorites are +2 AP and -1" Turn Limit for another +15 points, for a total of 325.  This is a lot for a Tier 1, but you have to accept you're playing an elite fleet with above-average stats across the board.

So lets look at a list:

310: Battleship + HC
270: 3x HC
100: 4x FF
100: 4x FF

That's 780 points, leaving 20 points to upgrade the Battleship or Heavy Cruisers.  I'm inclined to dump them on the Battleship, but Spook Torps for the Heavy Cruisers is good too.  I'd also lean towards Interceptors over Fighters or Bombers, because I really enjoy shutting down all Torps my opponent might lob my way.

Fleet Tactics: I'd generally place a squad of Frigates in Reserve, because they're a great throw-away unit with good damage potential when they arrive... and their early absence isn't very detrimental.  However, don't do this if it will lead to your opponent having 2 more activations than you Turn 1.  Another option is to place one squadron of frigates in one corner, and another squadron of frigates in another corner.  Assuming you won the first FTB roll-off, this will force your opponent to place three units before you commit your forces to a corner.  The goal is to make the game as much about a full corner-to-corner game as possible. 

With Interceptors, you should be able to easily guard nearby ships with their +8 to PD bubble; a 12" diameter PD bubble.  Make minimum moves towards your opponent, and be patient.  Your Direct Weapons have more AD than theirs, and you should be threatening Torp damage while you're blocking everything. Sacrifice the Frigates to force your opponent to activate, so when you activate, a minimum move will allow you to barely cross the RB barrier.  Don't make a full move to cross this barrier; instead, just hit that RB next turn.  Generally, move the Heavy Cruisers last, so distance can protect them from damage, and move the Interceptor Token so it can guard them before and after their move.

Turn 3 is when you will probably hit RB 2 with your entire fleet, ideally with little damage, but some noticeable damage on your opponent.  You could potentially inflict 10+ HP of damage on Capital ships this Turn, which is significant at this point level.  You'll probably loose a Heavy Cruiser and half of your Frigates, and probably have some Battleship damage, but ideally, your opponent will have even less to work with.  You might even have the opportunity to Board something with your Battleship + HC, which could be 11AD of Special Forces.  That's an average of 11 successes, which will threaten anything with a Crit, particularly if your Kinetics landed some Crits and caused CP loss.  Unless something crazy happens, you're probably not going to capture anything, but sometimes those fanatic RSN Space Marines really pull through. (What do you mean no one told you the RSN SF are 40k Space Marines?)

Something to think about, at least, right?

[Quickdraw]

I think we've identified the main issue, Landlubber:  You aren't willing to get 'stuck-in' with your capital ships, which prevents them from bringing their firepower to bear (Shrikes and Battleship).  I'm guessing you have tried to get 'stuck-in', but it didn't work out, so now you're not willing to commit properly.  Perhaps it was luck, perhaps it was tactics (yes, there are squad tactics in FSA), maybe both.

I'm also guessing the Shrike playstyle doesn't work for you, but maybe the Heavy Cruisers playstyle will.  These guys like to stay away and really pound their opponents before getting up close for the kill.  Basically, they should be putting out more firepower than their opponent at all ranges, particularly at long range, which might appeal to you more.  If they can get a RB4 shot on Turn 1, and slowly close the distance while firing every turn, they'll be happy.

As for the Battleship, DR 6/CR10 with 2 Shields is Standard, so DR7/CR11 with 1 Shield is generally superior.  Essentially, one of the Battleship's shield dice ALWAYS rolls a success.  I'll take these defenses any day.  The Battleship has basically the exact same tactics as the Heavy Cruisers too.  Pounds from a distance, then kill up close.  The difference is the Battleship has much better defenses, Wing Capacity, Mines, extra Fore Beams at 0"-20", and a couple of options, for slightly less firepower.  However, lets look at the real cost:

3x Heavy Cruisers: 270 points base, max AD at 24" = 18
Battleship + Heavy Cruiser: 280 points base, max AD at 24" = 16

16 AD is when you start having a reasonable chance to Crit a Battleship, but 18 is reliable.  That said, the Heavy Cruisers are generally better off firing three shots of 9AD at Cruisers, and potentially landing three Critical Hits.  I'll take 6 HP on Cruisers over 2 HP on a Tier 1 any day.

The real Battleship cost comes from the upgrades and hard points.  You should always take 4 Wings and Special Forces for +30 points (don't forget the Heavy Cruiser).  Add Hardpoints as your points allow; my favorites are +2 AP and -1" Turn Limit for another +15 points, for a total of 325.  This is a lot for a Tier 1, but you have to accept you're playing an elite fleet with above-average stats across the board.

So lets look at a list:

310: Battleship + HC
270: 3x HC
100: 4x FF
100: 4x FF

That's 780 points, leaving 20 points to upgrade the Battleship or Heavy Cruisers.  I'm inclined to dump them on the Battleship, but Spook Torps for the Heavy Cruisers is good too.  I'd also lean towards Interceptors over Fighters or Bombers, because I really enjoy shutting down all Torps my opponent might lob my way.

Fleet Tactics: I'd generally place a squad of Frigates in Reserve, because they're a great throw-away unit with good damage potential when they arrive... and their early absence isn't very detrimental.  However, don't do this if it will lead to your opponent having 2 more activations than you Turn 1.  Another option is to place one squadron of frigates in one corner, and another squadron of frigates in another corner.  Assuming you won the first FTB roll-off, this will force your opponent to place three units before you commit your forces to a corner.  The goal is to make the game as much about a full corner-to-corner game as possible. 

With Interceptors, you should be able to easily guard nearby ships with their +8 to PD bubble; a 12" diameter PD bubble.  Make minimum moves towards your opponent, and be patient.  Your Direct Weapons have more AD than theirs, and you should be threatening Torp damage while you're blocking everything. Sacrifice the Frigates to force your opponent to activate, so when you activate, a minimum move will allow you to barely cross the RB barrier.  Don't make a full move to cross this barrier; instead, just hit that RB next turn.  Generally, move the Heavy Cruisers last, so distance can protect them from damage, and move the Interceptor Token so it can guard them before and after their move.

Turn 3 is when you will probably hit RB 2 with your entire fleet, ideally with little damage, but some noticeable damage on your opponent.  You could potentially inflict 10+ HP of damage on Capital ships this Turn, which is significant at this point level.  You'll probably loose a Heavy Cruiser and half of your Frigates, and probably have some Battleship damage, but ideally, your opponent will have even less to work with.  You might even have the opportunity to Board something with your Battleship + HC, which could be 11AD of Special Forces.  That's an average of 11 successes, which will threaten anything with a Crit, particularly if your Kinetics landed some Crits and caused CP loss.  Unless something crazy happens, you're probably not going to capture anything, but sometimes those fanatic RSN Space Marines really pull through. (What do you mean no one told you the RSN SF are 40k Space Marines?)

Something to think about, at least, right?

Ryjak there is some seriously good food for thought in here. I especially like the idea of three separate shots from the heavy cruisers against a cruiser squadron, that will tear up a good chunk of the enemy fleet in just a couple turns. One thing to point out though is that I believe heavy cruisers take up a Tier 1 slot at patrol fleet level, so I think the fleet you quickly built up is invalid. It's a good base to build off of for a battle fleet level game though. Another long range Tier 2 like the destroyers would fit in nicely.

[Landlubber]

All good points, and I thank you for the analysis.

But I must remind you...and I hate to sound like "that guy"...but tactics don't matter if the dice aren't working for you. I'm not superstitious, but you can ask Quickdraw (probably my most frequent Dystopian and Halo opponent)--I tend to roll low. I've lined up some killer shots before, and completely whiffed them, leaving my ships exposed.

I think part of my problem is also a desire to protect my ships. I don't know why I play that way, but I do. I rarely ever go full burn on any of my RSN ships, for the reasons you listed below--trying to use their superior long range firepower while protecting them from the brunt of enemy counter-fire. But again, that only works if you roll at least decently, which more often than not I don't.

However, it's not like we're playing with real ships, so I could probably afford to try some different tactics. Lord knows what I've been doing hasn't worked very well.

[Ryjak]

Whoops!  I always forget Dindrenzi are special with access to Heavy Cruisers as a Tier 2 choice.  So definately swap out the Battleship for Destroyers, and give both squadrons Torpedo Spook.  Destroyers are a lot of fun, particularly when they can bunker in a Gas Cloud, throwing out 14AD Beams and 10AD Spook Torps.  They crumple fast once something breaks their 20" Stealth bubble, so they really want to find that Gas Cloud by the end of their 2nd Activation, or just stay parked in a corner at Full Stop.  If all they do is deny part of the board to your opponent, and consistently cause damage with their Torps, while never shooting their Beams, they're contributing strategically.  And with Ambush, you can place them exactly where they can do the most good.  In this case, massing everything in one corner, and Ambushing across the table can make it very easy to line up some nice 14AD shots on your opponent's T1.  With some luck, they'll bring it down to 1/2 HP all by themselves.

One of the easiest ways on how to use a specific unit is to play small games, like 500 points.  Break the fleet composition rules so you and your opponent can use it as a training event, and concentrate on using 2-3 units.  With few activations per turn, you'll learn to squeeze the most out of every activation.

As for bad luck, we've all been there.  When I attempted to fight Dindrenzi with my Aquans, I can't tell you how many times I simply failed to damage a DR 4 Cruiser.  4 successes should be easy to achieve, but not that game.  This simply compounded my strategic errors, which were more profound.

[Dakkar]

I just traded my Dinz to a friend (to hook him in for FSA *and* Planetfall, and get myself some Cygnar) ; but he's already thinking he wants an RSN fleet. So we'd been discussing tactics today.
What think ye of this build:

Garuda Carrier      120
+ Quick Launch and +4 Wings      10
 - Cost of 12 Wings overall      60
- Torpedo Spook      5
 + 2 Shrike Cruisers      140
      
3x Shrike Cruisers      210
      
3x Phoenix Destroyers w/ Spook      255
      
4x Hellion Frigates      100
4x Hellion Frigates      100

1000pts total

That's 3x 10 die Spooked Torp shots in the first couple of turns.
And to eliminate the inevitable Interceptor threat to torp dominance, I'm thinking one of the two Flights on the carrier should be 6x Fighters. With Quick launch, they can project out 24" from the Carrier, dogfight any Interceptor Flight (which are usually 2-3 strong only) and yo-yo back for use later.

I love the idea of these Carrier groups, but I have mixed luck with them though. Being able to hide in terrain might make all the difference.
Thoughts?

[Ryjak]

That's not a bad idea.  The initial goal of this list is to slow-play it, and using Fighters to potentially clear out Interceptors isn't a bad idea.  Attacking SRS is very hit or miss, usually miss.  The odds are just that terrible.  Assuming the other Token is 6 Bombers:

Turn 1, launch Bombers for PD
Turn 2-3, try to kill Defending Tokens
Turn 4, stay back just a little longer
Turn 5+, unleash hell

[Ryjak]

I finally sat down and published a blog post (http://ops-center.weebly.com/).  More importantly, I posted this article on how I would include SRS Tokens in the game.  Hopefully it will lead to some interesting discussions.

I'm posting here, because I think my next project could be an RSN Fleet Guide.  I would appreciate your input.

[Ryjak]

Started writing the RSN Fleet Guide today; here's what I write for the Battleship:

As is often the case, the Battleship is as smaller version of the Dreadnought.  It also has a bonus to every stat, but only 1 Shield, making its overall defense very solid, and also a good platform for your Admiral.  Offensively, it's basically the exact same as the Dreadnought, but with lower AD.  The difference is the Fore Beam; it's not really strong enough to shoot anything on its own, so plan to link it with the Forward-fixed Kinetic.

In addition, the Battleship comes with 4 WC stock, so you should take advantage of it with at least 2 Interceptors, but I'd take a full 4 Token.  You'll need it, because you need to protect your Heavy Cruiser Accompaniment.

Heavy Cruiser:  While technically optional, you should consider the Battleship's little brother as mandatory.  Basically it does two things:

1. Adds a few AD to each Battleship weapon system, including Boarding Assaults
2. Gives you 5 more tough HP your opponent must chew through to destroy your Tier 1, which should keep you from losing 4 BL.

Potentially, you could unleash 20 AD with this squadron, but linking the Battleship's Fore Beam with the Heavy's Kinetic would give you 2x12 AD shots at 20".  That's basically a dead T2.  Perhaps more importantly, you can reach out to 48" with 9AD, and follow it with 9AD Torps.  That is a lot of Firepower at a range where most factions can't even fire.  The pair isn't a slouch up close either, particularly with an 11AD Special Forces boarding assault, but most opponents want to be close.  Better to whittle them down from long range first.

Hardpoints:  You can choose two of the four available, and I suggest using both Mv and TL as your default.  +2 AP isn't a bad idea with the Heavy Cruiser; I'd swap this for the Mv Upgrade.  Ops Center is so-so, but some players really like it.

Upgrades:  Nothing new here; take Special Forces.