Confused about SAS attacks and carrier actions

[aktr]

Hi,

yes its me with more rules questions because I have no idea what I'm doing

So SAS
Lets say I have a unit of dive bombers that do a bombing run on an enemy ship
does the enemy ship get to shoot at the SAS with its AA like it would against rockets? And if so does this happen before the bombing run, at the same time or after?

similarly if its a dog fight do both sets of planes attack each other or does one group attack the other and there's nothing the over can do about it?

Also imagine I have 2 units of SAS with 4 token each, if both trays loose 2 tokens I will have 4 token in the grave yard
can I use a carrier with carrier action (4, 1x4) to create a new unit of SAS using these tokens or can I only do it when an existing tray has been destroyed?

if I can create the new unit can they activate when its my next activation?

Cheers

Andy

[warhawk]

So I can answer a couple of these.

For the bombing run with dive bombers they would get shot at with AA before releasing their bombs. If it were a torpedo bomber outside of the 4 inch AA range then they wouldn't get shot.

In dog fights it happens at the same time. Both players would roll off at the same time and then remove casualties as normal.

As for the creating new SAS I am not sure of how it would work out.

[Amiral X]

For rebuilding lost SAS, the rule are not clear but it is generally admitted that you can rebuild a SAS only if you have lost a full one before (and then having a tray in the scrapeyard).

[Whyarecarrots]

For the bombing run with dive bombers they would get shot at with AA before releasing their bombs. If it were a torpedo bomber outside of the 4 inch AA range then they wouldn't get shot.

I realise this may be a slightly stupid question but where in the rules does it say this? It's how I've always played it, but I've never been able to see where in the book it says when you are able to make defensive attacks - it doesn't seem to be in the defensive ordnance section!

[warbird]

From the 2.5 Rulebook on page 189

"Sometimes a SAS will be completely eliminated by the enemy either through heroic Dogfights or sheer volumes of AA! In order to execute a Re-Build Carrier action, a Carrier Model must spend 3 Carrier Points to Re-Build a lost SAS."

This really implies you need an eliminated SAS to rebuild.

I have been unable to find any reference to whether the rebuilt SAS comes in activated or unactivated.  Right now, we are playing it come in unactivated as this seems the consensus but this seems a little overpowered.

[erloas]

In addition to what Warbird said, someone from Spartan (Josh I believe) had clarified it in a thread on the forums.  I found it in a cached page and posted it somewhere on these forums recently.

Newly created SAS are unactivated, though this is one of the biggest issues some people have with the carrier rules.  If it becomes an issue in your local group I would just do a local change with your group.  (every indication is that the rules will be re-written when Wayland Games relaunches DW)

[Ruckdog]

For the bombing run with dive bombers they would get shot at with AA before releasing their bombs. If it were a torpedo bomber outside of the 4 inch AA range then they wouldn't get shot.

I realise this may be a slightly stupid question but where in the rules does it say this? It's how I've always played it, but I've never been able to see where in the book it says when you are able to make defensive attacks - it doesn't seem to be in the defensive ordnance section!

Just to further clarify, the torpedoes from a torpedo bomber SAS have a max range of 4" (pg. 186). So, this means that the target model will get to make an Aggressive Counter Attack with Ack-Ack (see pg. 125), since the range for Aggressive Counter Attacks against SAS is normally 4" (see pg 185). It also means that the target will be less likely to have linked AA from its squadron mates since any supporting models will also need to be within 4" of the attacking SAS, and with some careful placement on the part of the player making the attack with the SAS, they can avoid being within 4" of more than one model in the target squadron.

So, the sequence of events for a Torpedo Bomber SAS attack should be as follows:

1. Player A activates their TB SAS and moves it to within 4" of one of Player B's naval models.

2. Player A declares an Attack Run on Player B's Model.

3. Player B's model gets to make an Aggressive Counter Attack with Ack-Ack against Player A's torpedo bombers. If Player B's model has any ships in its squadron that are also within 4" of the attacking SAS, they can link with the targetd model to boost its Ack-Ack defenses. Applicable MARs apply. Any SAWs that Player B destroys with his Aggressive Counter Attack are removed from Player A's SAS.

4. The surviving SAW in Player A's Torpedo Bomber SAS now execute their attack run.

5. Player B's model gets to make a Defensive Counter Attack against the incoming torpedoes using Concussion Charges.

6. The remaining hits from the torpedoes are applied to Player B's model, rolling for crits as necesary.

[Elessar]

From a tactical perspective, probably worth noting that T Bombers are really only viable against subs, as they have no AA defence if submerged, and you Crushing Impact them.  Virtually every other scenario, D Bombers are superior.

[Ruckdog]

That is a good point, though Torpedo Bombers also get the benefit of not having to move into base contact with their target, which gives them a larger threat radius than dive bombers have. Plus, with the implementation of the Barrage munitions in 2.5, torpedo bombers have gotten a small buff in the new edition.

[CDR-G]

TBs have a big role, Some navies have crap CC and, usually you don't attack with either DBs or TBs until the target's auxiliary weapons are degraded.
Besides having extended range, its another rock/paper/scissors situation, one of DW's strengths.