MBS Monthly Poll #17

[Ruckdog]

3D Printing or "rapid prototyping" has been rapidly gaining in popularity over the last 5 years. Many companies, such as Spartan, have used the technology to produce the masters for their model ranges, which are then cast in other materials such as resin. Elsewhere, 3D printing services such as Shapeways have been providing naval gamers with a new way to obtain ships for their games that were never produced or else are long out of production. The technology is even being examined as a way to keep "dead" games active, such as the efforts to create new ships that are compatible with Halo Ground Command and Halo Fleet Battles.

However, the technology is not yet reliable or cost effective enough to do mass production of miniatures on its own. What do you see as the future for this technology within our hobby?

[voidstarsinger]

no one has yet explained to me how this is any a/ better or b/cheaper for me  either the company make the models and sells them to me (how is that any different?) or i buy a printer buy the material that you make the models out of wait several hours for the printer to print (if it dose not jam which i told they can ) pay for the power of this extra piece of kit ... ? just give me the models   

[RuleBritannia]

It is an excellent way to produce masters and then allow other cheaper methods to mass produce.

[CDR-G]

3D Printing or "rapid prototyping" has been rapidly gaining in popularity over the last 5 years. Many companies, such as Spartan, have used the technology to produce the masters for their model ranges, which are then cast in other materials such as resin. Elsewhere, 3D printing services such as Shapeways have been providing naval gamers with a new way to obtain ships for their games that were never produced or else are long out of production. The technology is even being examined as a way to keep "dead" games active, such as the efforts to create new ships that are compatible with Halo Ground Command and Halo Fleet Battles.

However, the technology is not yet reliable or cost effective enough to do mass production of miniatures on its own. What do you see as the future for this technology within our hobby?

I'm fairly sure 3D printing will replace masters and later all model production, eventually done at home using designs made by artists and designers. Probably some kind of locked designed to try to protect Intellectual Property, which will not work in the long run. The question is when. I suspect 5-10 years for the first part. Whether 3d printing can find its way through the issues of material limitations and and affordability will be a key part. I one can get a detailed model made of resin or pewter at the same price or less than a 3D printed model made of material that doesn't have a similiar feel or look it will slow its acceptance. We shall see. Its use in big money manufacturing and medical will be interesting and may be the avenue that brings the cost down and the print material selection broader. 

[erloas]

I think part depends if you are asking if home printing will ever become big enough to replace purchasing from the manufacturer, or if the question is if commercial manufacturing will switch completely to printing.

And the more I think about it, the more I think I voted the wrong way, I picked "not yet" but I think "never" is going to be the case.

The former will never happen, the outlay for a good printer is just going to be too much for most people.  Even something as cheap and simple as an oil change, which we've been able to do at home for pretty much as long as cars have existed, is still widely done by companies rather than individuals.  There is also no real incentive for the companies to move in that direction because it would be too easy for someone to buy the file and print and resell and they would be making most of the money rather than the original company.  Unlike some other digital good, such as music, that can make up low margins by moving a lot of product, the table top gaming community is never going to be big enough to support that.

From a commercial standpoint I don't think we're going to get there either.  I think printing is going to be a key part of it for development but not for production.  That is going to be because the material qualities that make for good printing and what makes a good model are opposite for many things.  Yes, they will make advances in material science that will make the printed material better, but at the same time it will be making the casting material better too.  The increased overhead for printing will always be higher than casting and both will be advancing with time.  I'm sure there will be a time when 3D printing will be better than current casting, but that would be ignoring the fact that casting will be improving too.

[Ryjak]

I’m going to disagree here and say 3D printed models and more are just around the corner.  The technology is growing by leaps and bounds, and the price of decent printers are continuing to plummet.  The only thing really slowing down the industry’s market growth are the US Patents... once those expire, a home 3D printer will likely be just as common as a photo-quality printer.

However, most people probably don’t need something like that at home... so I expect a company like Fed-Ex Kinkos will invest in high-end (high speed, high quality, large volume) 3D Printers, just as they have high-end Large Format Printers.

Further, we’re starting to see 3D Printers that can do a decent job with colors as well.  While they can’t match the average hobby painter in detail or total colors right now, it’s just a matter of time until they can produce at that level as well.

There a lot of things you simply cannot do without a 3D printer due to the unique construction technique.  Shapes and designs that are basically impossible to mass produce with common sculpt-mold production are surprisingly simple for 3D Printers.  These will also get better with time, especially as model designers that were never trained in the sculpt-mold method start hitting the scene and really capitalize on what this technology can do.

Finally, the real nail in the coffin for traditional production is 3D printing will bypass expensive shipping costs.  Do you enjoy paying for your models to be shipped across the Atlantic?  How about paying the cost of a letter to get a model sent to your house, or an entire army in a box for a couple dollars instead?  If you live in or near a decent city, there are probably plenty of high-end 3D Printers within 10 miles of you right now, and odds are those machines have a lot of idle time.  Even if they only made $.50 for each model they made for gamers, that’s far better than the $0 for that equipment sitting idle.  There will probably be a time when you can buy this time through Shapeways... if it isn’t happening already.

Considering one of the reasons Spartan Games tanked was due to distribution problems, local 3D printing essentially bypasses this entire industry.

For me, it’s simply a question of when... I’ll predict 5 years from now, as that’s when a lot of patents will start expiring, and the price of these machines and thus production will start plumettng.

Here are some top 10 articles to demonstrate where technology is at today;

https://m.all3dp.com/1/worlds-fastest-3d-printer-speed-3d-printing/

http://www.toptenreviews.com/computers/3d-printers/best-3d-printers/

Color 3D printer: https://www.xyzeshop.com/us_en/product/daVinciColor?gclid=CP3r1YPR6dYCFdmIswodIw8Pnw

[erloas]

I would agree that as a customer getting your models fast is better, but the main question is *why* would the game companies go that route?  They don't make their money off of rules, they give those away after all.  They make their money from selling models, so why would they give the profitable part of that process (making the actual models, making the 3d renders is not where the money is) to someone else to do? 

*If* we start seeing 3d printed mass production toys for children and other sorts of high volume goods for the average person then I'll expect to see hobby models come 5-10 years after that.

If we see large groups of people making their own models to "count as" in various game systems, I could see the whole industry collapse rather quickly.  Right now though looking at Shapewise their prices for custom pieces for 40k make GW prices look reasonable... so we've got quite a ways to go before 3d printing takes over.

[Jack Brown]

Ryjak, I'll have to check out your articles.

My reason for saying it's not there yet is the quality of the prints. I come at this from the perspective of being more a painter than a miniature wargamer. The problem I have with most current 3D prints is that the finish typically isn't there. The print lines show too much.

I've looked at some of the nicer quality options from shapeways, but $50 for a D7 for Star Fleet Battles is a bit much.

As the technology stands, I could see it more useful, at a home level, for things like terrain or accessories.

[Ljevid]

I chose answer B - but I would like to change the "....it is a long ways off yet" to "... it is still some ways off".

The reason is - I'm using it from time to time and am quite happy. One reason is that a good friend is a tech freak and owns one and we have quite a good one at work (which sadly is busy most of the time).

Up to now I never used it for anything else than terrain... And mostly for stuff I couldn't get otherwise. For me it is 10 mm Dropzone Commander terrain like shipping containers, 10mm road blocks, barriers and all the other stuff you would expect in a derelict, post apocalyptic city setting - but which is nearly impossible to get.

Btw: Here is a nice futuristic one on thingiverse:


by Abraham0815

If you like to build terrain apart from a typical railroad scenery - you will always be on the lookout for the one thing that is just right. In the past you had to get lucky on sale shows, (web)shops and the like. Nowadays you can go to a site where people share their 3D models for free and print whatever you like. Imagine the possibilities.

3D printer models are already quite popular on Kickstarter and the best way to get your hands on interesting products from e.g. Australia.

So, two advantages are + shipping and + availability

Let's come to the most important one: Costs - if you have access to a good 3D printer, like the Ultimaker 3 you print at about 10 to (worst case) 16 (Euro) cents per cubic centimeter of finished product - all with electricity and maintenance included. "What the hell is a cubic centimeter?" - well it is the same as one milliliter of water or 0,00416667 US-Cups. While one US-Cup are 240 ml or 240 cubic centimeters of finished product (at 10 cents/cm3) at a cost of 24 Euros and it will take about 60 hours to complete.

That is roughly the equivalent of a U.S. carrier battlegroup for Axis & Allies War at Sea

I believe that 3D printing is still in it's infancy, the access is very limited and that we will buy most of our models regularly for quite some time (which is probably good for the industry).

But it will become cheaper, faster and more accessible and I believe that 3D printing will have a major impact - not only on our hobby, but on society as a whole (good & bad). A lot of the good stuff is obvious, but the time when it is cheaper to just send soldiers and print a lot of their equipment on site is not that far off and just imagine which impact printed guns will have on our western societies.

[Jack Brown]

Ryjak, I checked out the articles you linked. Impressive stuff, but, ah, they ain't free. Someday. Heck, I still remember thinking eInk sounded so nifty and far off...

[Ryjak]

Ljevid makes an excellent point; game manufactures are terrible at producing appropriate gaming terrain; 3D printing can easily fill this gap.  That’s a great looking piece he had made.

All I’m trying to say is it is a matter of time before the traditional business model of making models is replaced by these kinds of technologies.  I think X-wing Miniatures has shown what the standard is for an off-the-shelf quality for a painted model to price ratio.  Right now, 3D printing is at least one magnitude removed from this point, but someday this will no longer be the case.  How soon is the question.

The real factor is how much commercial demand is there for this kind of production outside of miniatures gaming?  If the answer is very little, then the time horizon is pretty far off.

Also, if the 3D printing “print lines” are your only issue with a printed model, there are a few techniques out there to smooth them out.  Complaining about this is like complaining about mould lines in the 80’s.

https://www.fictiv.com/hwg/fabricate/ultimate-guide-to-finishing-3d-printed-parts

http://www.3dprinterworld.com/article/smooth-like-butter-mass-finishing-for-abs-and-pla-prints-magicbox

[Ryjak]

Oh, my future war prediction.  Naval ships will replace much of their expensive flight operation facilities with 3D Printers making drones.  While combat drones are far in the future, sensor drones are here already.  How easy is ASW when you can build all the sensors you need on the fly for the exact operations you need?  A networked array of crappy sensors beats a single high-end sensor. And so what if you lose 50-100% when you can just make more?

[Jack Brown]

All I’m trying to say is it is a matter of time before the traditional business model of making models is replaced by these kinds of technologies.  I think X-wing Miniatures has shown what the standard is for an off-the-shelf quality for a painted model to price ratio.  Right now, 3D printing is at least one magnitude removed from this point, but someday this will no longer be the case.  How soon is the question.

The real factor is how much commercial demand is there for this kind of production outside of miniatures gaming?  If the answer is very little, then the time horizon is pretty far off.

Definitely agree with this. The minis market just doesn't have the volume to drive serious development. Alas.

Also, if the 3D printing “print lines” are your only issue with a printed model, there are a few techniques out there to smooth them out.  Complaining about this is like complaining about mould lines in the 80’s.

https://www.fictiv.com/hwg/fabricate/ultimate-guide-to-finishing-3d-printed-parts

http://www.3dprinterworld.com/article/smooth-like-butter-mass-finishing-for-abs-and-pla-prints-magicbox

Interesting links. I think it's a bit much to compare to complaining about mold lines in the 80s, though. I painted some minis back then and there may have been an occasional mold line, they didn't require anything like the effort one would have to put forth from the first link. Sanding and epoxying pretty much the entire surface of the model is quite a bit of work.

At least it doesn't involve acetone, though. I was quite happy to discover acrylic paints back in the day. No more nasty chemical paint thinners...

Not saying the tech can't get there, but it isn't there yet.

[Ryjak]

Mold lines on those pewter models could be pretty bad back in the day... one mini took a lot of time to decently clean and smooth. I’m not saying that was a good thing; just that it’s an option today.

Wish I could figure out which machines do the “ultra fine” detail on Shapeways

[Nordic_Wolf]

3D Printing or "rapid prototyping" has been rapidly gaining in popularity over the last 5 years. Many companies, such as Spartan, have used the technology to produce the masters for their model ranges, which are then cast in other materials such as resin. Elsewhere, 3D printing services such as Shapeways have been providing naval gamers with a new way to obtain ships for their games that were never produced or else are long out of production. The technology is even being examined as a way to keep "dead" games active, such as the efforts to create new ships that are compatible with Halo Ground Command and Halo Fleet Battles.

However, the technology is not yet reliable or cost effective enough to do mass production of miniatures on its own. What do you see as the future for this technology within our hobby?

Hello Ruckdog,

I think I completely missed out on the poll due to uni commitments that just went in an avalanche at me for the past few months. I however would choose option 2 - it may someday replace some miniature making companies, but the technology as it is now is still in development stage. In my club I do see people making their own "Mechs" for the game "Battletech" - although the quality is mediocre when compared to the quality of Dystopian ward miniatures. I think for some companies it will depend, for money hoggers like GW, it may be the death-sentence as people turn more and more away from them and start to produce their own stuff. However, for the aforementioned Dystopian Wars, it may still not be so economically viable and therefore may not prove to be a good time-effort to put into the actual 3-D rendering of the object. That is one big aspect that needs to be taken into consideration, from personal experience I have found that making something as simple as a WWI airplane - Fokker EIII in 1:144 scale for WoG is time consuming, ended up sitting a few nights from 2300-0300 hours, just working away at it. I well understand that with experience comes speed, but still, something complicated and elaborate will be long hours of work.

I personally think the real value in 3-D printing though, is not in it's usage as a miniature company "choker", but in it's flexibility for the many historical periods. For people that may want to dabble with periods that are not so popular or known to the many others, projects in such categories may involve usage of miniatures that may not exist. It may be because the troops with the exact uniforms are not available just because no one made them before, or for any other reasons, forcing the wargamer to use similar "stand-ins". For an experienced 3-D modeller the idea of 3-D printing opens much more flexibility the produce the actual troops he sees fit. This is where I think this idea will shine mostly.