DWars fluff is dead, long live Warcradle

[Rich1231]

"Why would we not continue the same processes?  Lots of reasons.  Just releasing the exact same products with the same limitations ( in our opinion).  Is not what we want to do.   Lots of the miniatures were designed many years ago, and really show it."

 And how exactly do they "really show it" might I ask? They are supposed to be items from an alternate past, and have therefore no set sort of limit of style unlike say, historical warship miniatures which would benefit from increased levels of details with improved manufacture/sculpting technologies from older casts. If you mean some sort of style change with new ideas - I assume you are referring to something like the first 25mm Science Fiction figures from MINIFIGs IIRC that used undisguised set screws, hooks and other hardware items as weapons, which was not even acceptable at the time, which certainly does not apply here. and given that the most popular designs for Battlemech are those that are up to 30 years old, it seems an odd argument to raise. Can you explain why and how the DW designs have become aged? For that matter, what "limitations" are you referring to?

 Sorry if I seem 'shouty' here, I'm just genuinely curious as to what you meant primarily because I really don't see how something can become 'out of style' in an SF milieu ( Though I admit the concept of 'Zeerust' can occur like the swept shapes of 1970s sf Armor, thinking of the cover of the original AH "Hammer's Slammers" wargame. ) and I am tempted to call in the "Appeal To Novelty Fallacy" argument, but let's keep this civil

"We already have lots of plastics for Wild West Exodus.  Where there is a case for manufacturing in plastic, it makes sense to do it."
 Fair point and it's a logical move to continue with something you have experience in I do concede. However, you seem to have missed my point - Many countries are looking at banning the sale of plastic items. Will that not impact your sales in some minor way? Were you not around during the New York State lead ban and the whole Ral Partha "Ralidium Alloy" debacle? That one took years to resolve and was one of the factors that led to the demise of the home branch of RP.

Limitations..  and faults.  In some cases, the older miniatures are very poorly detailed. And though of course, it would be easy just to pour some resin into some molds and sell them. We would rather spend the effort making miniatures taking advantage of the manufacturing investments we have made.  In many cases the miniatures require remastering, and if we are remastering it makes sense (to us) to improve the miniature where it seems right to do so.  There are some other issues regarding casting quality - switching to a far better resin - using some other approaches and steps in manufacturing to reduce bubbles etc.  All contribute.  Then from a commercial pov, we want the games and minis to appeal to new players. I am/was a Battletech player. I have never seen it played in or available in any store I have visited in the last 15 years so hardly a comparison.

At the end of the day, we are going to do what we think is right for the growth of the game.

[Fracas]

I fear WC will overextend your resources

[Rich1231]

Hi Fracas,

thank you for your concern

[Covertwalrus]

 " In some cases, the older miniatures are very poorly detailed"

 Not entirely convinced of that - then again most of my DW items are 2nd edition, and often described as 'overly detailed' so there's that. As to "bubbles" and so forth, I've seen worse casting in some larger outfits products that Spartan, and better quality by smaller outfits, so I'm not sure how that's relevant. In any event, I'd have given Spartan a decent mark for quality, as would many others.

"I am/was a Battletech player. I have never seen it played in or available in any store I have visited in the last 15 years so hardly a comparison."
 I'd have to agree that might have been a poor comparison I suppose- Since in my part of the globe, the recent plastic "Alpha Strike" set was available in a lot of the independent games shops. And,. since most of my gaming is at clubs, I see Battletech being played frequently: Shops will tend to only permit games they sell or are trying to sell to be played ( Or at least, that's been my experience ) so games who are primarily internet sourced  tend not to appear at shop games days, for good commercial  reasons.

 

[RuleBritannia]

I don't think I ever heard a complaint on any Spartan related forum that their models weren't detailed enough with the exception of the early metal fliers.  I don't think anybody had a problem with Warcradle just rereleasing existing models as was to complete collections, nor anybody crying out for the redesign.  I really think a mistake was made in the Yankee vessel design where it is one piece with some bits hidden behind and difficult to paint, while the baroque style of the crown and the Russian tanks runs the risk of an aesthetic gap that will annoy collectors.  Its a problem of near infinite detail becoming; more divergent from the semi-historical feel some of us rather liked, designed as showing off the wonderful tech and not with painting in mind, creating a divergence in look that might makes it harder to expand existing collections.  But ultimately that is my subjective view on the redesign, and I had the same problem with Games Workshop, especially around the Matt Ward Grey Knights era with those monstrous baby papoose devices that lost some of boxy goodness of the human factions and made something that overdesigned the look.

[Fracas]

Redesign to boost sales is good

Redesign to put their own stamp on the product without market gains is a waste of resources

[Covertwalrus]

 This came out of a Facebook page discussion of an eBay listing of a League of Crimson set from the Spartan Kickstarter ( The auction is moving into triple figures USD at present ). While discussing if the style fit into Warcradle's ethic, and if these would be released, Stuart noted -
 "Rest assured that the Dystopian Age is full of conflict between the major powers. While it’s true there is no world war in the Dystopian Age, the world is teetering on the edge of one And running battles, skirmishes, Little Wars etc rage all over the world pushing the major powers ever closer to a cataclysmic confrontation."

 So one of the major FB fan critiques "It's odd to have a wargame in a setting where war isn't actually occurring" is partially countered.  I think this shows a move to compromise a little on WCs part.
 Mind you, and I have no screen shots to prove it, Stuart also made a couple comments that he then quickly removed; One about how combat was still limited to Arizona and one was . . . Direct and hopeful
Still not sure about how being "Historical game based" is such a bad thing as implied heavily several times though.

[RuleBritannia]

 This came out of a Facebook page discussion of an eBay listing of a League of Crimson set from the Spartan Kickstarter ( The auction is moving into triple figures USD at present ). While discussing if the style fit into Warcradle's ethic, and if these would be released, Stuart noted -
 "Rest assured that the Dystopian Age is full of conflict between the major powers. While it’s true there is no world war in the Dystopian Age, the world is teetering on the edge of one And running battles, skirmishes, Little Wars etc rage all over the world pushing the major powers ever closer to a cataclysmic confrontation."

 So one of the major FB fan critiques "It's odd to have a wargame in a setting where war isn't actually occurring" is partially countered.  I think this shows a move to compromise a little on WCs part.
 Mind you, and I have no screen shots to prove it, Stuart also made a couple comments that he then quickly removed; One about how combat was still limited to Arizona and one was . . . Direct and hopeful
Still not sure about how being "Historical game based" is such a bad thing as implied heavily several times though.

Thanks for sharing this CovertWalrus.  Certainly Stuart makes some good noises, but the fact it remains unofficial, and certain things have changed betwixt his vague pronouncements and the official pixels, so I will hold back judgement until it is recorded.  I don't like the fact we are facing a setting is still a minute to midnight, meaning you have to buy a campaign book to get to a war, rather a minute past midnight with the first battles raging and the next material opening up new fronts, but I'm not a guy running a multimillion pound gaming company so what do I know? I really don't care for the constant DOOOOOM, but that's personal taste.

The Fantasy/Historical dichotomy is silly.  What we are really looking for is a well rounded fantasy setting that feels real enough to populate.  Warhammer Fantasy had it, age of Sigmar didn't.  Game of thrones and Lord of the Rings had it, a sense of history, consistent rules, a past that makes sense, and that low fantasy sense that whilst there are gigantic stuff going on, conspiracies of ancient evils, even the smallest Hobbit's actions can make a difference, the world isn't set in stone. 

[RuleBritannia]

From a friend with access to the facebook group, this new pronouncement from Stuart seems quite important

The Dystopian Age is a new setting. It isn’t the same as the old game. It isn’t trying to be.  So really any opinions on what should or shouldn’t be in the Dystopian Age are really just personal tastes. This is not adding some supernatural elements to the old game. It’s a new game. No narrative connections at all. No continuation. Fresh start. It’s up to each player whether they want to take it or not.

So in this regard its tough for us old guard who liked the old setting, because it feels so close and yet so far.  The new names, the basic designs twisted to a new setting with a different take on fluff and aesthetics.  The success of recent fan popular games and films has been the careful use of continuity and continuation to give something previous fans can enjoy whilst still making them new and interesting.  Look at necromunda or bloodbowl, or contrast continuity happy Marvel, with dark and brooding DC in films. 

[Covertwalrus]

 There's been some lively debate on the FB page for DW where the WC staff are moderators. It's been quite polite ( Well, with one exception when  *someone* likened anyone who dislikes the new background as a crazy old spinster with ten cats . . . . :/) and rather informative. The head of WC and the whole of Wayland Games, Richard, was commenting on how poorly the last year of sales were for Spartan and that lead to this interesting comment -

 "The Kickstarter didn't really impact the sales, I'd suggest. The player base and numbers of players involved are not large enough to give good evidence of habits and trends for specific events. They had resin the year before, the numbers were not very different. WWX sales when we took over were half that of DWars. We think there is lots of potential for Dystopian Wars btw"

 Let's focus on two parts of that -
 1. The first sentence was in response to my observation that many people on FB heaped scorn on all the special offers Spartan made while the Kickstarter was under way and toward the end of the company. basically saying " You'll get no more money until we get our pledge stuff!" Now, I think Richard is suggesting I either hallucinated that, or it was only a tiny percentage of the whole of Spartan's customer base. I'll concede one of those suggestions might be partly correct.

 2. Note the last two sentences. Note also that I and a couple of others asked if WWX was being propped up by the DW franchise, hence the need to shoehorn them together. Obviously, you only need to support the system that sells less that the other, right?

 I will however agree with the last sentence. I'm not in full agreement with the way that "potential" is being directed.

[RuleBritannia]

It seems odd to me that the way to unlock that potential is to denigrate what came before rather than build on it, but that is probably bitterness speaking. 

He mentions figures for WWX before hand but not currently?  Right now I expect WWX to outsell DWars because there is an expensive redesigned Ice Maiden versus a much larger and cheaper range.  How much have sales of WWX increased, one presumes from a low base?  Its not massively popular in my area, especially compared to DWars at its peak.  Sales again could mean a lot of things.  Number of products?  Value?  Hard to directly compare with sensitive numbers data.

Low sales for DWars I think reflected Spartan's ADHD concentrating on Halo, and the massive boost for Canadians coming too late.  There seemed to be enough demand online for them to spawn some alternative sculpts after Spartan's demise. This suggests for me the problem was the business not the product.  The Kickstarter implies that too.

Similarly the question of popularity doesn't matter directly for fluff, its what fits the game.  DWars is a steampunk wargame, needs a more eccentric alt history feel to allow for sweeping wars, countries striving and massed battles.  WWX is a Weird Wild West game and so needs ghosts and conspiracies and aliens.  The two don't organically mesh, so requires some finesse to bring them together or else to sacrifice some of the flavour of one or both which maybe alienating for long term fans of either or both.  Currently it seems that DWars is getting the brunt of the flavour loss in the new amalgam setting.

[Fracas]

I think it will also depends on whether the 3.0 rules keep the flavor of DW or not.

[Covertwalrus]

I think it will also depends on whether the 3.0 rules keep the flavor of DW or not.

Agree absolutely. While the availability of minis will attract a few newcomers and keep a lot of already playing gamers happy, the biggest part of this will be the new rules. WC have already said definitely that "large sections of the original rules will be scrapped to make it easier for new players to enter the game' which is a pretty worrying in some ways statement, but then, what rules system has not got detractors who would change large sections?

This suggests for me the problem was the business not the product.  The Kickstarter implies that too.

 I have said this before and will do so again - Spartan Games as a company had many faults, and most if not all of them were in the business operation, particularly advertising and financial. To my mind at least however, we have seen the IP move from great game fans with no heads for business, to a group of dedicated salespeople with a passing interest in game design and play.

[Fracas]

New models can be ignored; I already have 6 land-sea-air factions
New fluff as well
But a bad new rules will force me to play 2.5 making it hard to build a gaming community ( asi have recently moved)

[Rich1231]

I think it will also depends on whether the 3.0 rules keep the flavor of DW or not.

Agree absolutely. While the availability of minis will attract a few newcomers and keep a lot of already playing gamers happy, the biggest part of this will be the new rules. WC have already said definitely that "large sections of the original rules will be scrapped to make it easier for new players to enter the game' which is a pretty worrying in some ways statement, but then, what rules system has not got detractors who would change large sections?

This suggests for me the problem was the business not the product.  The Kickstarter implies that too.

 I have said this before and will do so again - Spartan Games as a company had many faults, and most if not all of them were in the business operation, particularly advertising and financial. To my mind at least however, we have seen the IP move from great game fans with no heads for business, to a group of dedicated salespeople with a passing interest in game design and play.

I started gaming 36 years ago. Stuart being younger than me slightly later. I think 2 of our (47) UK staff are not gamers. Everyone else is definitely a gamer.

I didn't notice that you asked if we were propping up WWX by merging it with Dwars. Both could have been considered failed games in the past. WWX is now selling really really well.  Dwars has the chance to do just as well. It has been in decline for a long time and we think we can improve that situation.  We are not merging the games, we are creating a setting to base games in. There are changes to the setting that impact both WWX and DW.  It would be a bit daft of us to have 2 near identical settings based in exactly the same time frame.

BTW I wasnt suggesting you hallucinated the comments on facebook. All I can say is that there was no dip in sales that coincided with those postings.   If people held back purchasing because of the Kickstarter, it didn't have a material impact. The company was going to fail at some point in any case.

Also, Danny we are not sales people, I am not going to make excuses for being organized like a business though. We strive to be as organised and efficient as we can so that we are around tomorrow. It allows us to plan for a future that we might see rather than collapse in a mess.

So as I said on facebook, we are creating a game that will have a strong ecosystem to grow in, apps, organized lay, lots of resources, a good distribution footprint and sales people to give it a chance. None of those things were present before.  We also want a friendly encouraging environment for new players to feel welcomed into.