DWars fluff is dead, long live Warcradle

[RuleBritannia]

Dakkar have you read the WWX fluff? Whilst your vision would work for DWars, adding in gradually the sense of apocalypse, and wouod be nice contrasted with optimistic progress science of the CoA.  I personally would prefer more Rider Hagg adventure with the social criticism of HG Wells, showing the gilded nature of progress, such as Martians as just more efficient versions of Western Imperialism, and would prefer to cut back on the more racist elements in Lovecraft that would be an interesting way to take it, especially if it was rationalism and science vs. The horrors.

However, the myatical stuff in WWX is either gaia spirit for native Americans, evil space Vampires controlling Asia and eating their Chi, an evil alien conspiracy running colonialism, some greys stuck on earth, the Christian church the creation of xenocidal energy beings, and a mad scientist gone crazy and powering stuff on alien blood.  It renders mankind as strangely impotent and powerless, meddled with rather the meddler. 

[Dakkar]

I haven't read enough WWX fluff, just enough to for overview and most of the 1st book. As necessity, I imagine WWX focuses on smaller scale Wild West stories defined by people and places.
One aspect of absorbing existing scope, is that WWX can be changed by DW - much of what you list just don't impact or remotely apply to a fleet under full steam, or giant robots stomping into someone's harbor.

One perspective is that the world is BIG, and big enough to handle just about every variant and trope thrown in the mix.

[Covertwalrus]

 I don't mind *some* elements of magic . . . It's just that as both a scientist and a believer in the dignity and equality of all human beings, I'm against the fantasy depiction of magic as it turns up in games and wouldn't like to see it become dominant in a game setting.

 To quote Herbert W Armstrong " Let me explain what I mean by that . . . ". Magic is perforce elitist in that only specific individuals can utilize it,  and they usually do so at the expense of non-magic users unless curtailed by savage and brutal restrictions. Otherwise the magic users, much like the Q entity and such like in Star Trek, will by intent or accident destroy all others. ( Recall "the Squire Of Gothos"? yeah, that guy. . . ). Among even the best wizards, or every hundred Potters, there's always a Riddle With science and technology, it's always possible for anyone to learn enough to operate it at some level, though of course you still have the problem of negative intentions and misuse.

 Now in implementing magic, in game terms, unless it is well written and managed, magic certainyl seems to have been  basically the "beardy cheese" option in games; The ability to act at a distance with limited restrictions is always problematical. It's something tactics cannot work around to oppose or defend against, so it comes down to who can field the most powerful magic and scan simply become an arms race between players and while that may appeal, it fails to do so for me, and I would "Run well away" from games where this became dominant.

 It seems to me, and I confess that I may well be wrong in this, that WWX moved towards that point itself, and I wouldn't much like to see it enter in DW as well. Of course, magic in games built for the presence of magic like Uncharted Seas, where it was the sole weapon of some fleets,  but was balanced against the physical forces of other factions. Perhaps that will happen here, perhaps not. I shall wait and see.

 

[Covertwalrus]

I personally would prefer more Rider Hagg adventure with the social criticism of HG Wells, showing the gilded nature of progress, such as Martians as just more efficient versions of Western Imperialism, and would prefer to cut back on the more racist elements in Lovecraft that would be an interesting way to take it, especially if it was rationalism and science vs. The horrors.

 Or heaven forfend, the direction could take a unique approach Or at least a slightly different one: the horror and SF writer Colin Wilson wrote a more SF oriented approach to the Lovecraft universe with his novels "The Mind Parasites" and "The Philosopher's Stone" which created a no more benign but more rationally and scientifically based interpretation of Cthulhu and suchlike eldritch creatures in the universe.

 though I'd be more than happy with your take there, RuleBritannia. I suppose the negativity I might generate comes from the frustration of how Warcradle tends to drip-feed things out and often contradicts itself even while trying to be vague about it's plans if they aren't fully formed.  Still, guess we have to put up with it until something solid happens. ( No, I didn't mean the Ice Maiden though that's a really impressive start )

[RuleBritannia]

I personally would prefer more Rider Hagg adventure with the social criticism of HG Wells, showing the gilded nature of progress, such as Martians as just more efficient versions of Western Imperialism, and would prefer to cut back on the more racist elements in Lovecraft that would be an interesting way to take it, especially if it was rationalism and science vs. The horrors.

 Or heaven forfend, the direction could take a unique approach Or at least a slightly different one: the horror and SF writer Colin Wilson wrote a more SF oriented approach to the Lovecraft universe with his novels "The Mind Parasites" and "The Philosopher's Stone" which created a no more benign but more rationally and scientifically based interpretation of Cthulhu and suchlike eldritch creatures in the universe.

 though I'd be more than happy with your take there, RuleBritannia. I suppose the negativity I might generate comes from the frustration of how Warcradle tends to drip-feed things out and often contradicts itself even while trying to be vague about it's plans if they aren't fully formed.  Still, guess we have to put up with it until something solid happens. ( No, I didn't mean the Ice Maiden though that's a really impressive start )

Uniqueness comes in many forms with game design.  I liked old Warhammer Fantasy, because whilst each race was very often a rip off of a historical army, there were no other games where Medieval knights could fight Lizard Aztecs and it all kind of worked.  The preference is of course personal, and I may be among the dozen or so for whom the steampunk alt history really resonated as an interesting place to explore and play games, and enjoyed the focus on the battle being rationalism and a belief in progress against the dangers of jingoism and patriotism, very much playing out against a high Victorian belief in advancing forwards, pride against whats needed.  Nobody needed to be the 'bad guy', the historical setting meant the fun weird stuff stood out.  It didn't need a fantasy element, or a ticking clock to human doom to be interesting to me. 

However, we are where we are.  Whilst its easy to whine that the change I don't like is bad, I am not coming at it from an objective place.  But its great to hear ideas from CovertWalrus and Dakkar that show they get the setting, but also ways you can integrate the weird elements in without sacrificing the steampunk rationalism that I really enjoyed.  I do hope this is something that WC can manage, and that Rich, who seems to enjoy himself monitoring these conversations, gets it.  WWX fluff as stands, works for that skirmish setting, but has plenty of problems in terms of agency for our nations and characters controlled by alien actors, the conflict being much smaller, the alien blood tech, and the great spirit magic.  I do hope this is at least toned down, and that human agency is given more space.  Also that vessels don't have too much fantasy to them, but given space to either Victorian imagined science or it could sort of work science. 

[Fracas]

Keeping it alternative history with a little weird  science, and a whiff of gothic is imo the right balance.
Alien vampire cabal is too much.

[Dakkar]

Alien vampire cabal is too much.

Has the gaming world learned nothing from how White Wolf screwed up the Tzmices Clan? ;-)

[RuleBritannia]

I think you are on to something Dakkar.  How do you combine World of Darkness shenanigans with a sciencey setting in a wargame?  Do you set up a bit of barrier with references to the weird stuff that secretly runs the world but generally doesn't interfere with the battles of nations and giant tanks? Do you go all in and let the Chinese alien vampire cabal use mind control powers in game?

[Fracas]

Alien vampire cabal is too much.

Has the gaming world learned nothing from how White Wolf screwed up the Tzmices Clan? ;-)

Haven’t played vtes in over a decade, but the fleshcrafters were a favorite. What happened?

[Dakkar]

How do you combine World of Darkness shenanigans with a sciencey setting in a wargame?

I don't mind Vampires per se in the fluff. Their numbers would of necessity be small, thus no real in-game impact at the fleet level, save maybe a neat idea of having nigh-immortal generals. Imagine a vampiric Sun Tzu personally commanding your forces?

Alien Vampires though? That's extra dumb, like a bad X-Files :-)

[Dakkar]

Haven’t played vtes in over a decade, but the fleshcrafters were a favorite. What happened?

The sourcebook "Dirty Secrets of the Black Hand" revealed that the entire Vicissitude Discipline, was essentially a space alien virus hive-mind thing. And all Tzmices practicing it were corrupted pawns. Sort of like The Thing, but in slow-mo for Vampires only.
Talk about removing agency for an entire Clan in one fell and badly thought out swoop!

Most folks ignored it entirely as anti-Sabbat propaganda, or simply bad writing. But once told, a terrible story is hard to untell.

[RuleBritannia]

How do you combine World of Darkness shenanigans with a sciencey setting in a wargame?

I don't mind Vampires per se in the fluff. Their numbers would of necessity be small, thus no real in-game impact at the fleet level, save maybe a neat idea of having nigh-immortal generals. Imagine a vampiric Sun Tzu personally commanding your forces?

Alien Vampires though? That's extra dumb, like a bad X-Files :-)

What about chi drinking Alien Vampires secretly running all of Asia as immortal god emperors?

[Dakkar]

What about chi drinking Alien Vampires secretly running all of Asia as immortal god emperors?

Where are they actually from? If true aliens, why is it not a proper invasion/occupation?

Are they equating the Chinese to aliens? At the very least, it sounds insulting to Chinese Imperial Culture.

And how does "chi-drinking" actually work? Emotional Vampires should only be used in metaphors and classic Star Trek episodes.

[Fracas]

Haven’t played vtes in over a decade, but the fleshcrafters were a favorite. What happened?

The sourcebook "Dirty Secrets of the Black Hand" revealed that the entire Vicissitude Discipline, was essentially a space alien virus hive-mind thing. And all Tzmices practicing it were corrupted pawns. Sort of like The Thing, but in slow-mo for Vampires only.
Talk about removing agency for an entire Clan in one fell and badly thought out swoop!

Most folks ignored it entirely as anti-Sabbat propaganda, or simply bad writing. But once told, a terrible story is hard to untell.

Thanks for the info. Sounds dumb!


There was an alien vampire movie in the 90s: Lifeforce? I thought it amusing.

[Dakkar]

There was an alien vampire movie in the 90s: Lifeforce? I thought it amusing.

With Patrick Stewart! A semi-classic, but also terrible. :-)

Maybe that's where the Chi-Vampire idea comes from.