Poll

Do you think Kickstarter is a force for good in Naval Gaming?

Yes! Kickstarter is awesome.
1 (7.1%)
It can be, but beware of failed projects.
10 (71.4%)
I think the impact of KS has been way overblown
2 (14.3%)
No, Kickstarter is bad because it hurts stores, projects don't deliver, etc.
1 (7.1%)
Other (Please describe!)
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 14

Voting closed: July 08, 2018, 05:04:31 pm

Author Topic: MBS Monthly Poll #25: The Joys (and Pains) Of Kickstarter  (Read 2807 times)

Ruckdog

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MBS Monthly Poll #25: The Joys (and Pains) Of Kickstarter
« on: June 10, 2018, 05:04:31 pm »
For this month's poll, we are taking a look at Kickstarter (and other "crowdfunding" websites). There have been a great number of tabletop board and miniature games that have gone through Kickstarter and its ilk for their initial burst of funding, instead of through more traditional funding and distribution processes. Do you feel that is good or bad for the naval gaming hobby, and why?

Covertwalrus

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Re: MBS Monthly Poll #25: The Joys (and Pains) Of Kickstarter
« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2018, 03:24:34 pm »

 Well, I'm not the best person to ask from practical experience as I've been in only two KS campaigns -

 - Weta Workshop's artist wanted to self-publish a third volume of their art book "White Cloud Worlds" and also re-issue the two earlier volumes. That was a rousing success, with money left over that went to funding a scholarship for new young NZ fantasy/SF artists and even got the patronage of Wayne Douglas Barlowe.  I now have three lovely coffee-table books that I turn to for painting inspiration or just to make me feel good at a price that was way less than retail.

- The expansion to Dystopian Wars, specifically the Sturginium mine and the new Covenant submarines, fliers and support vessel. Nothing further need be said ( Though through wheeling and dealing, I have some of this now. )

 So I'm pretty much 50/50 on KS though the principle is one I believe to be sound.

Dakkar

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Re: MBS Monthly Poll #25: The Joys (and Pains) Of Kickstarter
« Reply #2 on: June 11, 2018, 03:32:28 pm »
I voted bad, because I think it was a key component in Spartan's demise, alienating their distributors and LGS footprint even more. Very few KS offerings have a good plan for LGS participation (Wyrd's THE OTHER SIDE being a notable exception). Spartan's KS plans left our LGS owner cold, and nearly tanked him carrying anything in their last months.
(Side note: I think one could demonstrate that KS has hurt game stores overall. I see areas like New Hampshire, where the D6G constantly talks about the locals being KS obsessive - and lo, they lost most of their local stores. I'd bet that repeats elsewhere if one had the means to research. Most gamers have a finite budget, and dollars spent on KS don't keep a local store open)

It is symbolically the Dark Side of the gaming Force - quicker, faster, more seductive. And it can produce amazing games. But it does little to build sustained games or sustained community, unless the creators are VERY careful with their budgets and planning.

If there's a great idea that really needs that boost or cash influx, it can be the magic to get started. But if over-relied on after that, well, that's the path to being a boutique game - not carried in 90% of game stores, and little known outside cons and fans and word-of-mouth. For some creators, that might be a fine existence. But I don't think its remotely lasts.
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Landlubber

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Re: MBS Monthly Poll #25: The Joys (and Pains) Of Kickstarter
« Reply #3 on: June 12, 2018, 12:03:33 am »
@ Dakkar, all good points, although I voted for "yes but beware of failed/delayed projects".

@Covertwalrus, I'm with you--currently sitting at 50% success for Kickstarters. I've backed four--the two recent expansions for DeepWars, the Dystopian Wars expansion, and Shattered Void. The two DeepWars expansions exceeded their funding goals and delivered just a bit late--good experiences for both with communication, delivery, etc. The Shattered Void Kickstarter is a year and a half past due for delivery, and at this point I'm just hoping that we get our starfighters at some point. Communication on that project has been pretty spotty, which has led to frustrations, but over the past couple of months it looks like things are on the upswing. The Dystopian Kickstarter...well, we all know about that debacle.

I think Dakkar covered all the salient points about Kickstarters. I would add that I'm wary of companies that keep going back to that well for every expansion, update, etc that they need to produce. I don't have any firm examples in mind, but if a company is not doing well enough in regular sales to fund that new faction or expansion, then to me that calls their business practices into question. It's OK to run one once in awhile, especially for smaller companies, but continuously relying on them to grow your game system is not a good indicator, I think.

@Covertwalrus, also, that book you mentioned...holy cow! I looked it up. Some REALLY cool images. Reminds me of some of the model kits they have on sale over at Industria Mechanika.
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voidstarsinger

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Re: MBS Monthly Poll #25: The Joys (and Pains) Of Kickstarter
« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2018, 05:08:19 am »
ok well lets just say i do spend some time on the kickstarter site (and money ) of the one's i have backed only one is massively late , and one seems to be locked in legal hell  on the whole i say i'm happy with KS try to research the company's look at there record see how they have done before , but with so many new games , lines of minis , company's some times you have to go with risk vs reward   or your gut, for the record  https://www.kickstarter.com/profile/2017582892   
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Ljevid

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Re: MBS Monthly Poll #25: The Joys (and Pains) Of Kickstarter
« Reply #5 on: June 13, 2018, 04:18:04 am »
I'm probably the only one who is going to vote for "Kickstarter is awesome"

The full sentence should be: "Kickstarter is awesome, if you do it right (and have the right mindset)"




1st Have a drink and enjoy an evening of drunk Kickstarter. (Actually don't... It's fun but expensive)
2nd If you find something awesome - ask yourself:"Do I need it?"(if it is an expensive one - wait 24 hours before you pledge - it helps you think straight)
3rd "Do I really need it? Will I still like it / want it in a year?"
4th "Do I ?... I mean look at the towering pile of shame - of unpainted plastic..."

5th "Ok, I do!" - Now you have to remember that Kickstarter is not a preorder(!!!) You are actually donating money so somebody out there can realize his/her dreams. You might get something for it... But only if everything works out.
6th Only use disposable income. It is a donation, remember?
7th Most important part: "Completely forget about it!" Maybe your future self will get some awesome toys and thank you for it - but only maybe.

Another important thing is: Don't let it get to you. Being annoyed that something doesn't work out or about delays is really not worth it and pretty much your fault (donation, remember?)
It is like giving money to a homeless person - and then being angry that he spends it on booze instead of a brighter future. (that comparison is a little off... but you know what I mean)

I myself supported several Kickstarters that were either incredibly late or failed completely. And you know what? I learned from it and moved on.

If I really want something I check the Kickstarter history of the person / company who does the Kickstarter. If it is their first one I either don't support it or consider my money as lost (with a small chance of succeeding). If you give a hundred bucks to some guy who never did a Kickstarter before, has problems with his spelling and probably lives in his moms basement... Well, losing that money is pretty much your fault.
And even with a good resumé - your money might be gone.

I have been in contact with people who did kickstarters and it is incredible how small oversights screw over your entire timetable. The best example for me is the Dropfleet Kickstarter - one of their worst mistakes was that they didn't consider the moving spaces in their warehouse: Once all the material was there, their warehouse was so full that they were unable to move between the pallets and had to work with only two packing stations. It was all there and pretty much on time, but they couldn't get the stuff to their customers because they had no workspace left.

Another friend destroyed his home during a Kickstarter, because it turns out that it is no problem to let some plaster moulds dry in your home - but if you have dozens of moulds drying at the same time the humidity will destroy the place. I'm talking about mildew, wallpaper coming down, rotting wood... Let's just say - he spent the kickstarter profits on repairs.


The only thing I really dislike about Kickstarter are some of the supporters. The bile and hate you get in the kickstarter comment section - even over minor infractions is despicable and rivals those in YouTube.   



So if you do Kickstarter - you should view it like a donation and forget about it the moment you pledged. If you can't _ Don't Do Kickstarter

Maybe try Amazon instead

« Last Edit: June 13, 2018, 08:02:18 am by Ljevid »

Ljevid

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Re: MBS Monthly Poll #25: The Joys (and Pains) Of Kickstarter
« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2018, 07:59:56 am »



Is Kickstarter a blessing or a curse for the (naval) gaming hobby?

There are quite a lot of discussions hereabouts if Kickstarter is good or bad for the hobby.

Generally I would say that Kickstarter allows hobby projects to see the light of day that would otherwise never (or much later) be realized.
E.g. Dropfleet would have come out two years later and with a much smaller portfolio.


In the olden days game designers had to embark onto a risky journey that might cost them dearly if it turned out that nobody is interested in their product. 
Nowadays Kickstarter reduces risk and helps the game designer to measure public interested in his product. It also helps to communicate his ideas and stay in touch with his “customers”.
One of the downsides is the immense damage to the manufacturer's image – if he fails to deliver on his promises. But I think that might not be a Kickstarter specific downside.

The only true damage Kickstarter inflicts on our hobby is the trend to use Kickstarter less for what it is meant to be – a start-up support and more like a pre-order platform.
Especially when large companies are involved that do Kickstarter exclusive campaigns.

These campaigns put the bar impossibly high for “normal” Kickstarters. For one their quality of presentation, communication and feedback is hard / impossible to achieve without a public relations team + the amount of free stuff that e.g. CoolMini or Not hand out in their Kickstarters

And people get used to that. They feel entitled to tons of free stuff and a high quality communication team that pampers them – if they don’t get that they become rude and short tempered. And even worse they start to hurt the image of the company not only on Kickstarter, but also on other social platforms.

The other form of downside to our hobby comes in form of the damage done to the FLGS (Friendly Local Game Store)

People who buy on Kickstarter won’t buy in the store and especially the Kickstarter exclusive campaigns are a disaster… All in all there is a lot of disposable income that never comes near a store, which accelerates the process at the end of which FLGS might become extinct. But after all - Kickstarter is only accelerating that process and not the sole reason for it. We have a strong movement here to support your FLGS and buy there instead of  the internet if you can help it and it starts to show.

As a result I would say that Kickstarter is a blessing and a curse (in disguise) – especially since big companies started violating the principles on which Kickstarter was built.

@ Dakkar I read the Monthly Poll question on my phone and wrote my answer without checking for new comments. Sorry for making the same point (LGS) all over again. Rather I should have answered to your comment, since I see your point, but don't really put all the blame on Kickstarter.




« Last Edit: June 13, 2018, 09:29:39 am by Ljevid »

Dakkar

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Re: MBS Monthly Poll #25: The Joys (and Pains) Of Kickstarter
« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2018, 01:09:06 pm »
@ Dakkar I read the Monthly Poll question on my phone and wrote my answer without checking for new comments. Sorry for making the same point (LGS) all over again. Rather I should have answered to your comment, since I see your point, but don't really put all the blame on Kickstarter.

No prob, Ljevid, and glad you made the same point. And I should clarify, I don't put all blame on KS for LGS woes or Spartan's missteps. Some other majors factors include:

Factor ONE -- Direct Sale Discount deals like Spartan's Corinthian Club (whatever it was called), or FFG's annual clearance sale, or Wyrd's Gen-Con sale all undermine the LGS. Gen-Con in general is bad enough, when 70-90% of cool new releases hit there, and a sizeable percentage of folks buy them there, and the LGS gets left with the scraps from what should be a major sales bump for them.
If folks know they can get stuff at discount reliably, or with promo models, then they'll wait for those times and avoid the LGS altogether for "big plans" or the new shiny.

Aside: I have at least one set of friends who's response to the LSs losing sales is "So what?" They've convinced themselves that the Brick and mortar model is outdated and unnecessary. Unsurprisingly, they game exclusively amongst their clique, in the homes of their clique. And in years, have never added a new person to the mix (except by skype RPG with older friends).
I've heard horror stories of whole cities without LGS's from my time as a Privateer Press Press-Ganger. I've seen this town without an LGS (only a game club), and without a game-club. I'd say Denver suffers from the lack of a central and stable LGS (two prior mainstays having failed in the past decade for the above reasons); while Colorado Springs has an embarrassment of game circles and variety, and flourishes, thanks to 3-4 fairly stable LGS's and a couple Hobbytowns.
I've seen clubs come and go too - Clubs fail to internal politics and costs far more often than not. One local group "Dead Generals" essentially fell apart when a prior leader of the group moved to Kansas, and *sued* for copyright to the club name.

Bottom Line - If your LGS goes away, there's few public play options. Clubs fail, and playing in someone's basement means ZERO growth for the hobby. So no LGS eventually means no tabletop games like we've become used to.

FACTOR TWO -- Internet retailer discounts program player entitlement to discounts. LGS's and game-selling already have a crazy low margin, almost as bad as books, to worse in some cases. Feeling forced into discounts is how the majority of LGS ventures fail. Our LGS used to have a fairly robust Warmachine group. But they hadn't bought *anything*, not one new release, in over half a year while still demanding table preference in the game area. This led to a disagreement with the LGS manager, and the group huffed and took themselves off to another store, which folded last year. People still play, because many devoted themselves to the game, and Denver-Ft Collins has healthy groups. But there's little of it in the Springs, and many veterans have moved over to Guildball and such.

FACTOR THREE -- Games need Demo Programs! If a company isn't actively promoting, they're not growing. If you aren't growing, you're dying - doubly so for games. Warmachine's downfall is also rooted in cancelling their demo teams (forced by fear of court action due to some awful and bitter MtG Judges). Court action was thrown out, but damage was done. Few in the industry still offer demo programs (Wyrd and Guildball being exceptions). I'd hope Warcradle creates a good volunteer demo program to jump-start (but not kickstart) the new Dystopian and Firestorm products.

FACTOR FOUR -- The Tourney-Player/Grognard effect. Anything that makes a new player feel excluded can fatally poison growth. Guildball and Malifaux locally both suffer from these ailments. Star Fleet Battles long ago locally axed itself due to grognards. But oddly local 40K and Warhammer don't suffer from it, possibly because local leaders are committed to the casual player in a meaningful way.

To cap it all off, I'd rank Kickstarter around 2.5 in the above. It varies because what can be an annoyance and cash drain to an LGS can ramp to a major hit when a company uses KS as their "new release engine", and cuts the LGS out.

One last KS downside - overexposure. If people hear about a game forever, but never see it on the shelves for over a year, then all excitement over the initial product has fled. Its like oversaturating a movie trailer, then delaying release. So when it does come around, its gets a shrug instead of a smile. Wyrd's game THE OTHER SIDE has me super excited when I heard about it well over a year ago, and played it at last GenCon. If they're lucky, they'll hit store shelves around THIS Gencon, and by now, I'm not even sure I care anymore. And this is a game with Pith-helmeted troopers, my special weakness! (HUGE fan of ZULU). Maybe the fact they basically have a Wakanda faction (Abyssinians) will save them. :-)

Okay, enough rant...back to work :-)
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Easy E

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Re: MBS Monthly Poll #25: The Joys (and Pains) Of Kickstarter
« Reply #8 on: June 13, 2018, 03:17:26 pm »
Kickstarter is a false hope for many games that should never have been.  In addition, it is not helping the LGS which is the heart of most communities when it comes to gaming. 

All that being said, it does help niche wargame areas such as Naval wargaming as there is only a limited number of supporters for such games and Kickstarter let's them laser target the small number of people for such projects.  Without it, we would simply have a handful of companies all making the "safe" game choices like Imperial Romans and German Late War WWII models.  In such an environemnt, most naval products would never see the light of day.   
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RuleBritannia

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Re: MBS Monthly Poll #25: The Joys (and Pains) Of Kickstarter
« Reply #9 on: June 19, 2018, 10:11:24 am »
They seem a good way to build up new companies and ranges, to build capital and reputation, but after the DWars debacle and a limited gaming budget I would personally dip my hand in my wallet for people like Wargamer. 

erloas

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Re: MBS Monthly Poll #25: The Joys (and Pains) Of Kickstarter
« Reply #10 on: July 05, 2018, 12:14:57 am »
For Naval gaming is a bit limited in scope and applicability.  Although I would say that niche markets are the ones best served by crowdfunding. 

I just counted, and I have backed 26 projects.  DW is the only one that has failed me, although one is still in development and has been for a long time.  It may never make it. 
Although looking back at the list I also realize that I never got the stuff from one of the Reaper kickstarters, which I would have to guess was about the time I moved so it is probably too late to get that fixed now.  Which is really my fault.

Some of the games were really good, some weren't very good, some I've got and just haven't ever had a chance to actually play.  That's not really any different than buying from any other source.  Was a bit disappointed in the quality of the Bones models, but the quantity was still good.

As for the community aspect... I can't really say.  I went into two LGS just recently, it had otherwise been years since I had been in one (my brother's before he shut it down, mostly because it wasn't worth the effort rather than it wasn't surviving.  He didn't want to live off of MTG, but that was the only game that actually brought in any money). 
One store, well as far as I could tell MTG was all they really played, I tried talking to the... I assume owner, but he didn't act like talking about anything was worthwhile.  The other store I went in and talked for quite a while to the owner, he seemed to be a really cool guy.  They don't really play any of the games I want to play or am interesting in playing.  The main issue though was that he was closed Sunday, the day I'm most likely in the area and all of the days they normally have games going are days I'm working.  I've been following many other LGSs on FB and the only things they seem to be doing are on days I work. 
Point being, I couldn't tell you what impact it has had on LGSs, but from a personal perspective any effect, good or bad, would be completely lost on me.

warbird

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Re: MBS Monthly Poll #25: The Joys (and Pains) Of Kickstarter
« Reply #11 on: July 05, 2018, 04:38:05 pm »
I have certainly had some mixed results but overall fairly good from Kickstarter.

I (luckily) got most of the stuff from the Dystopian Wars kickstarter so I am not complaining too much but I know many people lost big.  Dust Tactics was almost a bust but they delivered eventually even though I suspect some money was misspent.  Others by good companies (Dwarven Forge and Reaper Bones) have been perfectly fine except often a little late, mainly due to production/shipping issues from China.  Reaper Bones was several months late for the first 3 Kickstarters so in KS4, they added several months to the schedule, and people complained because it was too long to wait.  Communication is key if things start to go wrong.

I watch out for KS's that sound too good to be true or expand too much from the core idea with too many stretch goals or paid for add-ons.  These tend to distract from the core idea and result in delays or even possibly failures.  Examples from Dystopian Wars are printing backer names on the rulebook cover and the custom ships for super backers.

Echoing above, if done right with good planning and knowledge of risks, Kickstarter can be very positive.