DW 3.0 Pre-Launch Discussion MEGA THREAD

[Sebenko]

Okay tier
Too many random lumps.

Meh tier
Plutarch but worse.

Bad tier
"Just whack a drone launcher on it"

Straight garbo tier
Looks like someone kitbashed a boat from warmachine reject parts.

It looks like they're not even trying with the fine detail on most of them- aren't those meant to be pistons behind the A turret on the cruiser? A lot of the angles seem totally random, too- the prow on those cruisers looks a total mess.
Actually, the longer I look the more I dislike these. Why do the turrets look like someone tried to make a CoA e-turret out of marshmallows?

[RuleBritannia]

There is a hint of an interesting idea with the Covenant having armour that come round and surround them for diving and things, but as things stand they look more cartoonish.  The Whale Cruelty battleship is not pleasant.

[Zac]

The problem is that what works for the skirmish game WWX, where a gang of ten people fighting for resources is a skirmish, doesn't naturally fit a game with battlefleets of twenty or so warships, where the loss of that fleet is a major event, and would be the commencement of sustained armed conflict.

I'm not saying that it works, I'm just explaining why they did it

[Covertwalrus]

 Backing up slightly, I must say I'm not horrified utterly by the Covenant Cruisers and Frigates: Yes, one cruiser option seems pretty odd but not dreadfully so, the frigates could work as heavy frigates, but oh, dear . . . those battleships.

 What is really wanging my chung about those are that the artwork for these looked much better than the result; True, the bridge was always a 1960s plastic saucer house disaster, but at least it had some style in the hull. This chunky look really doesn't work; And it's clear from the Russian Commonwealth ships that they can recapture the earlier design form of Spartan's work, even if they seem to have some kind of loathing for the deceased in general.

I'm not even going to talk much about the fluff. It's exactly as I expected though, given the Thatcherite post-modernist GW mindset of the company; Their Dystopian Age is a crapsack world full of inherent human corruption made worse by Sturginium's powers, while Spartan's Sturginium Age was a positive world climbing to toward Utopia falling into the temptation of Sturginium rather than its promise. 

[RuleBritannia]

I'm not even going to talk much about the fluff. It's exactly as I expected though, given the Thatcherite post-modernist GW mindset of the company; Their Dystopian Age is a crapsack world full of inherent human corruption made worse by Sturginium's powers, while Spartan's Sturginium Age was a positive world climbing to toward Utopia falling into the temptation of Sturginium rather than its promise.

I think for me the fluff has some big problems that emerge from coming awkwardly shoving DWars into the WWX setting

1. The idea of what conflict means I've discussed above with Zac, but at a basic level you don't carry out a secret skirmish war between competing powerful men and women with with toy battleships.  Battleships, and battle fleets are major investments and require the infrastructure of a state.  Even Spartan's mercenary companies were pushing it until they fleshed out the Italian and covenant fluff.  They aren't something that carry out covert ops.

2. The dark cynicism of plots and machinations again doesn't fit a wargame like this.  You can talk about unrest at court but I would want to hear more about the naval structures and areas of conflict, not that prince Zog is full of alien brain slugs and Princess Elsa's ice powers are part of a conspiracy by the omniscient council of vagueness.

3. The approach to non-western powers is really unpleasant, just the worst.  I get it with gang leaders in the old West, but treating foreign princes as either magical demi-gods powered by nonsensium or senile idiots being manipulated is orientalist nonsense and dehumanising, and even worse doesn't fit the nations they are discussing.  The whole Celestian empire and Latin alliance concrete landmass blocs of nations removes the potential for conflict between traditionally belligerent nations and removes agency from historically independent peoples, and is just lazy.

4. Spend some time telling me about how the fleets and commanders operate.  Mention some commanders.

5.  Why isn't there a war?  The Japanese blew up Singapore!  You can't just hide that under a rug. 

[Covertwalrus]

 Latest from Warcradle.
 
 Seems like it's coal in the stocking for the Prussian players, but nevertheless thought I'd keep you informed

 https://blog.warcradle.com/blog/2020/warcradle-studios-diary-37

[Ruckdog]

 Latest from Warcradle.
 
 Seems like it's coal in the stocking for the Prussian players, but nevertheless thought I'd keep you informed

 https://blog.warcradle.com/blog/2020/warcradle-studios-diary-37

Coal? Not at all! I know the new designs aren’t everyone’s cup of tea, but they look good to me. I think it’s great news that we’re getting them as one of the first fleet sets to be released TBH

[Sebenko]

In isolation each Prussian ship isn't terrible (except those turrets that are just nonsensical), but as a whole, they look awful- it's the same ship scaled up/down! Also dislike how they took a cool one-off concept from the Spartan days and just said "all prussian ships are that now".

As for coal in the stocking, the supposed Italian ships posted on the facebook page really are godawful.

[Zac]

They really seem to lack detail. They are all very smooth except for the weapons. If you look at the art on the box you can see where they planned for rivets and other details at the front of the ship that somehow didn't make it into the plastic models.

[Ruckdog]

They really seem to lack detail. They are all very smooth except for the weapons. If you look at the art on the box you can see where they planned for rivets and other details at the front of the ship that somehow didn't make it into the plastic models.

I can see where you are coming from on that. There does seem to be a lot less riviety goodness on the newer models. It seems WC is leaning into the generally sleeker and cleaner lines the Prussians have always featured. I have to say though, it didn't jump out at me as too noticeable.

In isolation each Prussian ship isn't terrible (except those turrets that are just nonsensical), but as a whole, they look awful- it's the same ship scaled up/down! Also dislike how they took a cool one-off concept from the Spartan days and just said "all prussian ships are that now".

Since I like trains and the Prussians, this is sort of a chocolate and peanut butter combination for me; I'm actually sort of excited they took this feature from the old monitor and ran with it

As for coal in the stocking, the supposed Italian ships posted on the facebook page really are godawful.

Are you referring to these?



I've got to admit, they don't seem all that bad to me. The trireme-like ram bows seem a bit odd, but other than that I feel like they are pretty decent designs. I think they will work out fine, though I'm curious to see how the artwork will eventually translate into 3D models.

[Sebenko]

I've got to admit, they don't seem all that bad to me. The trireme-like ram bows seem a bit odd, but other than that I feel like they are pretty decent designs. I think they will work out fine, though I'm curious to see how the artwork will eventually translate into 3D models.

If they turn out anything like the CoA whale ship, poorly.

I dislike that they got rid of the elegant hullform and subtle artistic details like the greek pillars and arched windows, the stacked turrets inspired by the USS Kearsarge (The exact sort of real world pre-dreadnought lunacy that made DW great)- and replaced it with a pile of riveted scrap.

[RuleBritannia]

I'm going to say something somewhat out of character.  I don't hate the Italians.  As long as they actually are the greeks.  Just as the Ottoman models, which are clearly actually Raj models.  With that labelling issue sorted Warcradle may have done something alright, although those command decks could use more character and less genericness. 

The Warcradle Prussians have always been a sore point to me.  The Prussians seemed to be a pretty popular fleet, and such a radical overhaul is just a dick move.  I know its a consistent feature of Warcradle's vision for the game to separate themselves off from Spartan, but it remains a dick move and I hope one they eventually apologise for as a high handed and stupid dick move.  The result is something that looks more at home leading the Fire Nation to victory.  That is perfectly cromulent but ironically loses the appeal of the near diselpunk advanced sleekness of the Prussians as a contrast to the steampunk weirdness around them.  It doesn't do anything for me, and the strategic need for a logistics train at sea is just silly.  It crosses my personal threshold for things that are cool and makes sense but are very silly to just very silly in a way Spartan rarely managed outside of Dreadbots.  The battleship models have a couple of versions that make sense, but having rear and fore facing fixed cannons is very stupid and I hope whoever allowed that to be a thing feels very silly.  I'm sorry to rant, I just feel the Prussians exemplify the worst impulses of a design team that doesn't get and doesn't care for Dystopian Wars as a concept.

[Zac]

I know its a consistent feature of Warcradle's vision for the game to separate themselves off from Spartan...

At this point I am unsure why they even purchased Spartan Games. They aren't producing any of the old models, they rewrote the background and they are doing their own designs.

The game they are presenting now is almost entirely unique. Why even use the old name?

It strikes me that they could have produced this entire game and range of minis on their own without purchasing Spartan

[RuleBritannia]

I know its a consistent feature of Warcradle's vision for the game to separate themselves off from Spartan...

At this point I am unsure why they even purchased Spartan Games. They aren't producing any of the old models, they rewrote the background and they are doing their own designs.

The game they are presenting now is almost entirely unique. Why even use the old name?

It strikes me that they could have produced this entire game and range of minis on their own without purchasing Spartan

Well to be fair certain fleets are borrowing very heavily from the Spartan look like the Russians, Covenant, and French, and certain fleets are referencing Spartan ships but can feel very uncanny valley like the British, Chinese, Japanese, Ottomans (from the British Raj).  Only the Prussians are just completely incompatible weirdness, although the Americans are close.

[Covertwalrus]

I've got to admit, they don't seem all that bad to me. The trireme-like ram bows seem a bit odd, but other than that I feel like they are pretty decent designs. I think they will work out fine, though I'm curious to see how the artwork will eventually translate into 3D models.

 They aren't horrible, and as people have been saying *in another place* ( Love that phrase from the British House of Lords, as they consider it "Bad form" to mention the House Of Commons), the concept looks more like the Greeks being inspired by the Athenian period. All in all, it may be the best fleet, bar the Russians we have seen yet from Warcradle.

I dislike that they got rid of the elegant hullform and subtle artistic details like the Greek pillars and arched windows, the stacked turrets inspired by the USS Kearsarge (The exact sort of real world pre-dreadnought lunacy that made DW great)- and replaced it with a pile of riveted scrap.

Oh yes, I don't care who you are, that Classical Empire meets WW2 Italian Navy look just worked so well. There are a couple small nods to the old designs here, cranes and triple exhaust stacks, but otherwise they are just so pedestrian. And the Kearsage-style turrets were so unique in the whole game.