DW 3.0 Pre-Launch Discussion MEGA THREAD

[Easy E]

Well, to be fair it makes a bit of sense that the Italians use the ram, as the ram devastated their fleet at the Battle of Lissa in 1866, and made naval designers of the period question if  the steam ram was the way forward in ship design!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Lissa_(1866)

So, if the Italians took the wrong idea from Lissa then all their ships must HAVE rams!

 

[Easy E]

One thing about previous versions of D-wars is that relatively useless nature of escorts in the game.  They pretty much were on the table to show how powerful larger ships were by being sunk all the time.  Sure they were fast, but that often times just meant they got sunk quicker!   

As I look at this Beta rules, I am not seeing much that makes escorts less of a points sink than in previous editions.  Am I missing something?

[Sebenko]

You can pry my destroyers and corvettes from my cold dead hands, they were great in DW 2.0.

[Ruckdog]

One thing about previous versions of D-wars is that relatively useless nature of escorts in the game.  They pretty much were on the table to show how powerful larger ships were by being sunk all the time.  Sure they were fast, but that often times just meant they got sunk quicker!   

As I look at this Beta rules, I am not seeing much that makes escorts less of a points sink than in previous editions.  Am I missing something?

I think it was rather faction specific. As a Prussian player, my escorts and frigates were some bread and butter units for me. Other factions, they were somewhat more disposable. However, overall the design of DW 1-2.5 favored small ship types, which is probably one of the reasons the fleet comp rules put a limit on them.

[Covertwalrus]

So, if the Italians took the wrong idea from Lissa then all their ships must HAVE rams!

 Always possible, but then there is a lot of effective ramming in DW 2.5. Some ships are very good at it in fact.

I think it was rather faction specific. As a Prussian player, my escorts and frigates were some bread and butter units for me. Other factions, they were somewhat more disposable. However, overall the design of DW 1-2.5 favoured small ship types, which is probably one of the reasons the fleet comp rules put a limit on them.

Oh indeed. Some faction's escorts are very useful, such as the Korsors for the Danish (A decent gun plus a one-shot mine dispenser), or the Fury for the Black Wolf (With its ability to deliver Devastating Munitions as a group)
Escorts are meant as a level of extra protection and firepower for the vessel they are escorting, is my take on the class, and DW 2.0 and higher really expresses that well; Destroyers are a more flexible option which is as it should be.

 

[Easy E]

Well, then perhaps the impression I got from earlier editions about escorts was wrong? 

I am happy to hear that.

[Ruckdog]

Well, then perhaps the impression I got from earlier editions about escorts was wrong? 

I am happy to hear that.

I got the impression that you found them to be glass canons, which is certainly accurate. There's a definite art to using small ships in DW, where you need position them and activate them in order to get off an Alpha strike before they are obliterated. It is easy for one full-strength frigate squadron to destroy (or nearly destroy) an enemy frigate squadron in one activation, between shooting and boarding. So, getting that alpha strike off is huge. Also, as you say, they are quite vulnerable to attack from larger models.

[Covertwalrus]

I got the impression that you found them to be glass canons, which is certainly accurate. There's a definite art to using small ships in DW, where you need to position them and activate them in order to get off an Alpha strike before they are obliterated

 That is very true. Even with escorts that have definite tasks, like those with sub-hunting abilities (Like the Directed Fire- Concussion Charges that some escorts have), you have to get them into play to utilize that skill effectively.

 But that's where Small Target, Elusive Target and suchlike MARs come in as protection; Escorts are fragile, sure, but they aren't simply disposable single-shot deals..

[Ruckdog]

 That is very true. Even with escorts that have definite tasks, like those with sub-hunting abilities (Like the Directed Fire- Concussion Charges that some escorts have), you have to get them into play to utilize that skill effectively.

 But that's where Small Target, Elusive Target and suchlike MARs come in as protection; Escorts are fragile, sure, but they aren't simply disposable single-shot deals..

In my experience, though, they essentially are "single-shot deals." Those MARs really only help with letting smalls survive long enough at long range to allow them to close and get off their RB2 or RB1 attack. Once they are that close, those MARs aren't enough to save them. The usual sequence in my experience is that a squadron of 5 frigates swoops in and does major damage to an enemy small or medium squadron. The enemy retaliates, and you have  maybe one or two of your frigates left. Those 1 or 2 ships can still be a threat, of course, but the bulk of the squadron's potential damage has already been dealt by that point. Plus, we are talking about game turn 3 or 4 by this point, and not many DW games last more than 5 turns anyway!

[Covertwalrus]

The usual sequence in my experience is that a squadron of 5 frigates swoops in and does major damage to an enemy small or medium squadron. The enemy retaliates, and you have  maybe one or two of your frigates left. Those 1 or 2 ships can still be a threat, of course, but the bulk of the squadron's potential damage has already been dealt by that point. Plus, we are talking about game turn 3 or 4 by this point, and not many DW games last more than 5 turns anyway!

 My experience really does differ; My own escorts and smalls do work like that on most occasion, with the notable exceptions of the BW Fury frigates which seem to live blessed lives; My opposition tends to close in with escorts and small craft, decimate anything up to Cruiser mass, and then leave virtually unscathed to wreck more havoc on another squadron. That Close Quarters restriction for main weapons  has been a thorn in my large ship's side for almost all the time I've played DW ( One reason I now have a Kingdom of Denmark fleet)

 Interesting how playing styles and actions are different between people.

[Ruckdog]

New previews have gone up on FB for two Canadian units: A battlecruiser, and a submersible aircraft carrier (!).

I have to say, I think these look pretty nice 

Territorially, the Dominion of Canada has proven to be the most significant to the Crown. In the years since the end of the Prussian Wars, Canada has grown in importance as an industrial power in its own right, a bulwark against Union northern expansion and strategically located to push against both the awakened Empire and the scheming Commonwealth.
Preferring to operate its naval forces in a more flexible and rapidly deployed nature to the other Dominions, the Canadians focus on speed and ruggedness. Their prows are reinforced to deal with the ice floes that are a common shipping hazard for their deployments.

[RuleBritannia]

New previews have gone up on FB for two Canadian units: A battlecruiser, and a submersible aircraft carrier (!).

I have to say, I think these look pretty nice 

Territorially, the Dominion of Canada has proven to be the most significant to the Crown. In the years since the end of the Prussian Wars, Canada has grown in importance as an industrial power in its own right, a bulwark against Union northern expansion and strategically located to push against both the awakened Empire and the scheming Commonwealth.
Preferring to operate its naval forces in a more flexible and rapidly deployed nature to the other Dominions, the Canadians focus on speed and ruggedness. Their prows are reinforced to deal with the ice floes that are a common shipping hazard for their deployments.

The submarine is a definite improvement on the ugly as sin 'nautilus' version of the vengeance, though with the way the 3.0 rules stand I can't see how sub carrier is as exciting as Spartan version though easier to stat up.

With the Canucks I have mixed feelings.  I like the response to the Spartan models, but the unnecessary gunk still makes the designs far too busy for me and those mini turrets seem out of place.  However, the design borrows a lot from a couple of fan designs and Warcradle make no mention of that heritage which is a big dick move in my book.  The command deck borrows heavily from Joseph Hillen/Merlin's designs on thingiverse and elsewhere, and of course the Canadian plate was originated by Dayve Walshe.  Considering how hard Warcradle has been coming down on fans and fan projects, to borrow from fan designs and not recognise that fact is pretty disgusting to me.

[Zac]

I wonder why their designs seem so squat?

[Easy E]

That sub-carrier looks the business! 

Not sure if it fits in thematically with other Crown units, but it is super cool looking!

[RuleBritannia]

I presume that's just the house style, trying to meld the less over the top designs of Spartan with the more stylised WWX designs which are a lot squatter and exaggerated.